Yet Another Plea for Historical Gameplay

[CRASH]

Already addressed ad nauseum.

 

Originally posted by Nifty:


An option is a choice.  You're not suggesting a choice, you're suggesting a different format for the MA, albeit just for a day or two.  So my options on your day are to fly your version of the MA or not fly at all.  There isn't a new option in your suggestion, you're just replacing the current MA option with your own.  That's what just about everyone here is against.  Modify the CT to fit what you're suggesting and have that as an option, and the MA will still be the MA as an option.

[Nifty]

Originally posted by CRASH:
I think the only way to really test the idea is to do in the MA..Anyway, thats my pitch.
CRASH
 

So you're saying this is no longer your position, and that you wish to test it in a separate arena?  If so, then I'm cool with it.

[lazs1]

steven... yes... something will have to be done to make early war planes a viable choice if we are to have them in the arena but...

An early war "area" or even some sort of RPS wouldn't (and shouldn't be) be restricted to the silly straightjacket of "allied vs axis"  with allied vs axis.... even less planes are viable.
lazs

[CRASH]

I'm saying there's an issue here, people are bored with the same continuous style of play, so bored in fact that they simply leave.  In my squad it's probably a 75% loss rate.  Does that reflect HTC's retention rate, I have no idea.  For purely selfish reasons, ie. I want the game to be successful because I wanna keep playin'it and I'd like to see 1000 people in the arena, and I think the game has alot to offer thats not gettin' to joe ah driver I'm sayin' that a variation in MA play, whatever form that may take, would be a welcome diversion.  That's why in my original posts I said I wasn't married to any one particular idea.  I know I'm not smarter than all of the bbs participants, no one individual is.  I expected creative inputs, suggestions on ways to make it better that ht might have actually taken seriously, instead many of the posts were simply knee jerk reactions against any change whatsoever...I was rather suprised at the response.  It's unfortunate that people dont really care enough to say, "hey, I'm bored, how bout a change?", they simply just try the game for a bit and leave.  I've been reading some of the other posts on the board lately (way too much time on my hands this week ) and many of the "whines" are rooted in "hey, I'm bored, lets do something a little different".  
     As far as I'm concerned, if your reaction is "not in my MA, not for a week, not for a day, not for a minute" then your part of the problem.  You dont care about anyone else's interests but your own.  Who cares if the majority get bored and leave eventually, at least I'm getting what I want 100 percent of the time, thats all that matters.  It's selfish, and the people who act like that are acting like selfish children who refuse to share. There may be one best way for the MA to be most of the time and I would totally agree that we shouldnt permanantly change the MA from the current model but there's no question that we need some variety.  
     The CT in it's current form is an empty gesture and splitting up the player base into different arena is a proven bad idea as far as I'm concerned.  
CRASH

 

Originally posted by Nifty:


So you're saying this is no longer your position, and that you wish to test it in a separate arena?  If so, then I'm cool with it.

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by CRASH:

...It's unfortunate that people dont really care enough to say, "hey, I'm bored, how bout a change?", they simply just try the game for a bit and leave.  I've been reading some of the other posts on the board lately (way too much time on my hands this week  ) and many of the "whines" are rooted in "hey, I'm bored, lets do something a little different".  
     As far as I'm concerned, if your reaction is "not in my MA, not for a week, not for a day, not for a minute" then your part of the problem.  You dont care about anyone else's interests but your own.  Who cares if the majority get bored and leave eventually, at least I'm getting what I want 100 percent of the time, thats all that matters. ...

 

Interesting argument.  Do you have data to back that up?  I would propose that a majority of the AH player base plays on a regular basis and do not care for your idea.  I myself do not have any data to back this up; however, I do remember the numbers in the CT compared to the MA when it was first opened.  I believe the highest number of participants at any one time was somewhere around 40.  The MA still had a showing of about 150 strong.

Question:  If the majority of the players where indeed bored with the MA playing style then why did the numbers in the CT not reflect this at its grand opening?

Answer:  Because the majority isn’t bored with the MA.  My opinion anyway.

What I see is a proposal to alter the playing style of the majority to suit the, not so vocal, minority.  And yes, I do care about other players.  Usually the ones I’m thinking of are the numbers, probably high, that do not frequent or post in these boards at all.  If that makes me part of the problem, well then, I guess that all depends on your definition and use of the word “problem”.

I would hope for boredom’s sake that all the issues with the CT get worked out.  After all, IMO, this is where your proposal needs to be.  Not in the MA.  When, if ever, I start to see on country and open channel about how much the MA sucks flooding the text buffer I may be influenced also.  The way I see it, as long as HTC keeps putting out and refining changes to strategy, aircraft, vehicles, and terrain a remodeling of the MA is not needed or warranted.  Even if the remodel is only for a day or two.  After all a lot of the changes to the MA have a root with player concerns.  I believe your proposal to be to much of an alteration.

You may just have to face the cancellation of your account and changing to greener pastures to satisfy the boredom that seemingly plagues you.  I’d also be willing to bet good money you’d be back within a handful of months to the new and exciting MA.  I could be wrong the leave might be permanent.  I wouldn’t count on HTC going belly up because of it though.

Some people are just never satisfied.

Zippatuh

[Nifty]

Zip said it best.

crash, if you look around at other threads, you'll see that I'm in favor of something along the lines you're talking about.  To say that I don't care about anyone's interests but my own are far off the mark.  My interests for the most part are NOT what the MA offers.  However, what I get from reading these boards and playing the game over the past 6 months is that the majority of people prefer the current MA setup of choosing planes, lonewolfing, furballing, etc.  The only viable options are multiple arenas and Lazs' idea of arenas within the main arena.

I agree with you on the CT in terms of it's a hollow gesture.

We do have variety, crash.  You flew with us in the TOD this past week, and hopefully you're flying with us again tomorrow night.  I agree with everyone that says it's not enough though.  It isn't.  Friday nights are ok for the majority of us, but it's not feasible for others.  The CMs will get a Euro friendly one out, hopefully within a month or so.  Changes are coming where hopefully we'll see more scenarios (Snapshot variety) running, and not just on Saturday afternoons.  Sounds like there's another big multiframe scenario in the works.  

Just imagine this...  You log onto AH one evening and you see the MA arena (heck even with early, mid and late war areas to make lazs happy) with a good 150 people on it, the TA has it's usual 10 people furballing it out, the SEA has about 30 people in it running a recreation of a Pac (or Eastern front) battle, and the new CT [complete with strat, mission generators both player and auto generated, scores, maybe even AI ground vehicles and bomber squads complete with bomb dispersion (ok ok ok, I'm getting a little too much into the fantasy here!)] having about 50 people enjoying the "historical" aspects on a 24hr basis.  That fantasy scenario, IMO, is much better than 210 people in the MA, some being forced into playing a style they don't really care for.

ps - sorry for the use of the word "historical."  We're all into the selective "historical" or "realism" thing.  Just depends on where we set the slider.

and on that note, I'm going home.    

edit: lazs, I'm just pokin' fun at you.  I actually agree with you on the issues of mixing late war and early war planes.  I'm just not sure what the best ways of dealing with it are.  I dunno about the areas concept, but I agree with you that the perk points just keep the late war planes rare but not fair.  You'd still have a case of a Spit I (if added) being shot at by a Me262, for example, in the current setup.

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Nifty ]

[Beegerite]

Having read Crash's post, here's my opinion on this subject.

The CT arena could provide the haven those of us who want historically based realism in AH e.g.

Rotating historically matched plane sets
Rotating terrains to go with plane sets above e.g. you would feel weird flying a P47 or P51 over an island terrain or a Nikki over Europe.

No icons or at least just a red or green dot which would show only at distance that aircraft markings are visible.

Death takes you out for 5 mins.

Enhanced stall/spin and more realistic flight model e.g. you exceed the envelope in a 190 and you'll stall/spin and probably die as so many real life pilots did in WW2.  Take off in an F4U without proper correction for torque and it will kill you right there on the runway.

The numbers have grown in AH and it's a shame to have an entire arena sit idle.  I suspect it's because there just isn't much difference between the two.

Beeg

[Beegerite]

Man I hate to bring the name of FA into this august gathering of eagles but I will.  When I first started flight simming in FA I found that what I liked the most was the totally different flight model in the full real arenas.  Things like Crash is mentioning here; crosswind, low level weather is what could make the CT arena different enough to draw it's own following.  I would have to be making a big assumption that from a programmer's point of view this is easily attainable but if it is possible that would be my preference.  Plane sets don't have to be changed just make them more realistic and I strongly suspect that the only people in there will be those who are willing to invest a little more time to master the more demanding conditions.
Beeg

 

Originally posted by CRASH:
<snip>a little crosswind at ground level at some airfields occasionally to add some realism to take offs and landings

Maybe a little low level weather <snip>

CRASH

 

[ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: CRASH ]

[CRASH]

Zip,
      I'll take ur last hypothosis first.  I'm not interested in quitting ah, I thought I made how I feel about the game clear in quite a few of the previous posts and if thats your polite way of saying "if you don't like it, leave" then it's pretty close minded.  
     Regarding the numbers you mentioned, no I dont have a statistically valid sampling just my own experience with my squadmates and a few others I know who've played the game.  Out of 15 or so that played there's 3 left, but ofcourse HTC would have the hard numbers.  From my experience, people don't fill the buffer with "the ma sucks" when they get bored, or even post a word, they just stop playing.  All addressed in previous posts.
      I dont agree that the majority would vote for no variation in MA setup.  I think that given a chance the vast majority, (though of course not wanting to change the arena permantly, me included) would be in favor of many of the ideas I suggested on occasion.

Nifty, I'm a different CRASH than the guy that flew TOD last week, but as luck would have it I will be up this week.  Gonna fly with ammo's crew this hop. I had initally em'd swoop about flyin' with you guys and was gonna but decided that flyin' with ammo would be a better idea.
     I never thought that splitting the player base into different arena's was a good idea and still dont.  I like it when you log on and there's 200 people in the arena, some are on ground attack, some on cv's some runnin bomber raids, ect.  It gives you a lot to choose from.  Split arena's gets you two arena's with fewer people in them furballin' 'cause there isnt enough players available and willing to put on the organized stuff.
     Ya know, I hate flyin' buffs for the most part, almost never do it, but if the buff guys convinced ht to have buff night once a month in the ma and 3 out of every 4 flights you had to take a buff, I'd be all for it.  I'd learn how to gun a buff better and when it was my turn to fly a fighter I'd have a boatload of big fat buff targets to blast to pieces.  I know that I'd still have fun. And on top of all that, the avid buff drivers would be happy and less likely to bail out on the game.  That's the difference between me and you zip, I'm willing to play some else's game once in a while because it's good for everybody and when my turn comes around those same people would be willing to play mine.  It's all part of being a community.  

CRASH

[lazs1]

nifty... I don't feel you are 'poking fun' at me at all.  you have fairly stated my position.   I believe that my position is the only viable one i have heard so far that will allow what any arena needs...  parity, action, variety, choice and action and then more action.   You need to be able to log on at any time and choose any plane you like to fly and find some fun fights in a short time and have..... fun...  yu need to have as much fun flying one hour a night as you would if you camped on line.   on line campers don't need to be "rewarded" with idiotic perks or any other advantage.    Newbies and casual players need to be rewarded but.... the only reward should be a good time.

The current arena is getting faster and faster and more restricted to certain styles and later war rides.   crash and co.  are so far off the mark that they would bankrupt any sim in a heartbeat.   the, lopsided and unfair at best at worst and just plain boring at best, "axis vs allied" "historical" planeset is a loser.   I don't give a whit what they think is "historical"  I read the book and I know how each chapter comes out.   I'm not in the mood to dress up and play WWII re-enactment in.... A GAME.   I will comprimise tho.... give the historical dipshits medals or rank or something and call it a day.
lazs

[lazs1]

And nifty... I got nothin against your dream CT arena idea with it's 50 players but... The reality is that MOST of the "historical" or even allied vs axis if you prefer, guys....  Well, let's just say you couldn't get two of em to agree on any one feature for such an arena.   The reason?   They, most of em, have an agenda that has nothing to do with parity and everything to do with gaining some sort of advantage.
lazs

[deSelys]

Originally posted by lazs1:
...parity, action, variety, choice and action and then more action...

You should write scripts for Michael Bay or even Jerry Bruckheimer, lol. I would honestly like to see your version of Pearl Harbour. I think that half fo the audience would be throwing their guts out after 10 mins due to sensory overload  

You used to turn me mad...now you're giving ma a good laugh at least twice a day. I thank you for this...

And, Lazs, I'll give you that: you're dedicated!

<S>

PS I still don't agree with you most of the time, but we both don't care now  

[Steven]

<<<[Lazs] They, most of em, have an agenda that has nothing to do with parity and everything to do with gaining some sort of advantage.>>>

It appears to me you pooh-pooh everyone else's idea and are so certain your idea is the best.  I won't say it is or isn't because I am not clear as to what you suggest, but arenas within arenas are still separate arenas.  I think we can all do better to work together and find a happy medium.  I disagree with your statement though and think you have it backwards.  Those who fly the so-called "uber" planes do not want to allow the parity of enjoyment in Aces High.  They want to fly their favorite aircraft at the expense of others.  I had about 2-3 months experience in Air Warrior before finding Aces High and though they had a main arena that offered Warhawks and Wildcats with Mustangs, Spits and even N1Ks (though N1Ks seemed more frangile and less used there), I might have seen a Wildcat flying in the arena twice and I can't recall ever seeing a Warhawk flying in the main arena.  Just why is that?  Is it because paying money to become a target and commit Air Warrior suicide is no fun?  I suggest the same thing will occur in Aces High once early war planes are introduced...if ever introduced.  Their choice in the MA is really no choice.  I love the Wildcat and have a great respect and admiration for those pilots who took that little beast up against the best the Japanese had to offer but I'll never, ever be able to enjoy that aircraft in a Main Arena setting if something cannot be worked out.  And thus, the Main Arena in effect would not be a free-choice area.  I only see the potential problem and am not sure what the answer is, but it would be cool if we could use a better tone of writing in here so people take us seriously.

[texter]

Originally posted by CRASH:
Why?  We've been forced into an unorganized MA for years and people are have left because it's just the same old thing and no one at HT seems to care enough to give it a shot.  I'm not advocating that we make a permanent change, I'm just saying give it a try for a weekend or so, if people like it make it a regular event, say 1 week a month or even 1 weekend a month. What do we have to lose?  If it's unpopular we just dont do it anymore.  I think the community would accept it as a  short, welcome break from the standard fair.  

CRASH

 

"The MA is practice for scenarios."

Tex

[lazs1]

desely... I am gratified..  everything i have done in flight sims has been done with an eye toward bringing a smile to your face...  It is my version of the 'make a wish foundation' and....  You can bet my version of "pearl harbor" woulda made money.   You coulda bought a lot of minimum wage theatre puke cleaner upers with the profit.  A little more gratuitous nudity couldn't have hurt either.

steven.. I don't belive that you have gotten my point.  With a seperate early war 'area' within the arena people could easily check out early war action while keeping an eye on everything else that was going on in the rest of the arena.   Yur (and my) beloved wildcat would have a place to fly and best of all... they could and would do it unmolested by mustangs and doras and 190A's.  To make any arena, even mine, allied vs axis tho would be to destroy variety and parity in one fell swoop.  

With an area arena, squads could stay intact, friends could stay in touch etc.   contrast that with seperate arenas or even any type of "axis vs allied" idea.  
lazs