Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human

[bozon]

Because it's bad for the game. It presents a no win situation to the players in heavy bombers. It makes heavy bombers irrelevant and useless. With that system the player in the heavy bomber at 20k can do everything right and still fail.

No. "everything right" from 20k means either manual calibration to attain the maximum potential accuracy, or using the semi-auto calibration and a wider bomb pattern to assure a hit. The latter is not such a horrible thing. It means that if it takes 2000 lbs to kill a FH, you mean need to drop 3000 lbs at a wider pattern because a few of the bombs may actually miss (oh the horror). You trade accuracy for safety and can attain both if you opt (decision in real time! not a game setting) for the full manual calibration and you know what you are doing. Level bombing from 10k should hardly be affected. It takes some tactical thinking, some skill, and some understanding of how bombing works - a terrible concept for a skill based PvP game.

Players keep complaining about how horrible it is to miss even one bomb. and how everyone will go jabo instead - I see dive bombers that miss targets much more than level bombers, unless they ride the bombs all the way down.

@Karnak:
So you are suggesting that one be allowed to have JDAM-like accuracy with high bombers sans any particular skill...why exactly? To increase the number of bomber flights? By the same logic, we should equip the P-40C with 20 millimeter Gatling guns as incentive. After all, peeps hardly fly it and they need a little encouragement that their sortie want be a waste of time, even if it is unrealistic. Right?

In reality level bombers were imprecise tools that often proved next to useless in trying to hit individual small targets, like bridges. They were used en masse to devastate large areas. In the semi-precision role, the dive bomber was realistically the proper tool. Why object to this fact?

Karnak's cautiousness is understandable. Heavy bombers in this game are used in a completely unhistorical way. They are also often flown by noobs that have not figured out dogfighting (or dive bombing) yet and it is an early phase in their careers before advancing to fighters (though there are a handful of dedicated bomber players). For the sake of gameplay we do not want to see bombers go extinct. I simply think he sees my suggestion as a bit more extreme than it is.

In reality, tactical bombers were very inefficient in anything other than  bombing cities. My personal view is that the strategic bombing campaign of the 8th airforce was a net loss to the allies, if you consider how all those resources could have been used elsewhere. However! level bombers are an icon of WWII and I would hate to see a WWII era PvP game without them, even if this means some relaxation in modeling some aspects of their mission (but not flight models!). At the same time, they should not be completely trivial to operate - this is a heavy skill-based game after all.

[FLOOB]

Bozon in the old dispersion system you could have your bombsite calibrated and drop your whole load of bombs on one hanger and miss the hangar entirely. The manual bombsite calibration was just as accurate as it is now, in fact I hadn't even known that it had been changed until about a year ago, I was still calibrating manually.

[kvuo75]

I hadn't even known that it had been changed until about a year ago, I was still calibrating manually.

holding down y doesn't work anything like moving the crosshairs with a joystick. how could you confuse the two?

[FLOOB]

You have to hold down y when you hold the cross hairs steady. The only difference now is you dont have to hold the crosshairs on a point. Either way your still holding down the y key. There was no confusion, I just didnt know the method had been changed.

[Karnak]

You are arguing that we should *highly* warp the accuracy of level bombing from high altitudes to please gamers. Essentially, what we have good be called arcade-mode level bombing accuracy. By the same argument, we could relax the physics, get rid of spins and blackouts make the gunnery easier, etc. One iteration of arcade-mode is as good as another.

Hell, P-40C pilots are kind of in a "no win situation" in the LWMA. They can do everything right and still fail. So let's give P-40Cs Gatling cannons and RATOs...

P-40C player can choose to take a Spitfire Mk XVI, still a fighter.  A bomber player can't choose to take a different bomber to make it easier or less likely a waste of time.

[bozon]

P-40C player can choose to take a Spitfire Mk XVI, still a fighter.  A bomber player can't choose to take a different bomber to make it easier or less likely a waste of time.

The bomber pilot can choose to spread the bombs or opt for manual calibration if the altitude is high.

A bomber pilot has 3 times the lbs of bombs due to the ability to drive a formation. This was added so the can spread the bombs and still do the amount of damage of one bomber or more. Somehow it became expected that bombers must not miss a single ounce of its triple load.

[BaldEagl]

The easiest and best thing to do would be to bring back manual calibration mode and get rid of idiot-proof mode.  It never stopped people from flying bombers when it was the only option, and, if calibrated correctly you could still drop with pinpoint accuracy from 25K.

[FLOOB]

The bomber pilot can choose to spread the bombs or opt for manual calibration if the altitude is high.

One can opt for manual calibration? And why would he?

[Karnak]

The bomber pilot can choose to spread the bombs or opt for manual calibration if the altitude is high.

A bomber pilot has 3 times the lbs of bombs due to the ability to drive a formation. This was added so the can spread the bombs and still do the amount of damage of one bomber or more. Somehow it became expected that bombers must not miss a single ounce of its triple load.

Three times the payload that all misses the target makes a bigger collection of craters in the countryside.  It doesn't make the player feel that their hour flight was any less of a waste.

The easiest and best thing to do would be to bring back manual calibration mode and get rid of idiot-proof mode.  It never stopped people from flying bombers when it was the only option, and, if calibrated correctly you could still drop with pinpoint accuracy from 25K.

I was there.  Bomber use plummeted, and a large number of the Lancs and 17s that were used were as dive bombers.  Your statement doesn't match what actually happened.

Personally I liked it, keep that in mind.  I never had any problem with it.  I recall the screenshots of players missing the hanger by multiple field lengths.  I don't recall ever missing a target at all.

[bozon]

Three times the payload that all misses the target makes a bigger collection of craters in the countryside.  It doesn't make the player feel that their hour flight was any less of a waste.

If they insist on dropping a single salvo in an attempt to drop the target with the exact amount of damage required. It is the same waste for a fighter pilot who has no clue and gets blasted out of the skies without being able to fire a single shot at the enemy, or the one that dive-bombs, miss the target, and get mauled by the acks or lawdarts. HTC can set the default delay for bombers to something a little higher than 0.05, if that will help the cluless.

@BaldEagle:
I was there.  Bomber use plummeted, and a large number of the Lancs and 17s that were used were as dive bombers.  Your statement doesn't match what actually happened.

Personally I liked it, keep that in mind.  I never had any problem with it.  I recall the screenshots of players missing the hanger by multiple field lengths.  I don't recall ever missing a target at all.

I remember that as well. For this reason I suggested to keep the current calibration method in place and make its accuracy altitude-dependent (based on real arguments) such that from typical bombing altitudes of 10-15k most of the cluster will hit even in a single salvo. The dependency of accuracy on altitude, beyond some trace of realism is to make the virtually unstoppable 25k bombers that bomb fields (not strats) a little less able to single handedly shut down fields or pork the ordnance/dar/troops with a single bomb per object. The potential for dead-eye accuracy will still be there for those that can do the manual calibration.

I was fooling around with a (single) Mossie XVI bomber yesterday, sniping GV's and objects (dar, field guns) from 6-8k with 500 lbers. The method was to make a pass and observe the v-field through F6 view to locate objects/vehicles, make a 5-6G U-turn, wait 20 seconds, make another 5-6G U-turn, hold "Y" 3 seconds a few seconds before the drop, bomb the object/GV - repeat up to 6 times. In between I sometimes had to dodge a tempest and/or a 109. The only reason some of my bombs missed is because my speed was always around or in excess of 300 mph, which left me very little time to put the cross-hair on a tiny GV once I see it through F6, so I made some proximity drops in the hope the blast radius will get them.

Dive bombing will have put me at a much greater risk and more bombs would have missed, especially if I had to drop from high to stay away from the wirbl hell down there. This is not how level bombing is supposed to work, calibrating 3 seconds after a blackout turn to perfect accuracy, with no established bomb-run and not even a stable speed. Too bad I did not spot any perked tanks there - the GV players would really appreciate my calibration skill if I sniped one from 7k, safe above their acks and wirbs.

Just for the record, I usually don't attack V bases (except their dar) with a plane - I tend to leave the ground war to the GVs. Also, I dont fly bombers that much, and I am not supposed to be very good at it - it is just that easy.

[BnZs]

P-40C player can choose to take a Spitfire Mk XVI, still a fighter.

And a pilot looking to take out a single building or a ship can choose to take a something appropriate to the mission, like a dive bomber. He will kill only one building or ship per sortie though, how sad I feel about that!  

  A bomber player can't choose to take a different bomber to make it easier or less likely a waste of time.

Bombers WERE most a waste of time in the roles they end up being used for in the AH MA. We play a game that is obsessed with physics, where there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth if it turned out a certain cannon was modeled with too high a ROF or something, yet when it comes to bombing accuracy we have something equivalent to arcade-relaxed physics to make gunnery easier, no one bats an eye. Bizarre.

[Karnak]

Bombers WERE most a waste of time in the roles they end up being used for in the AH MA. We play a game that is obsessed with physics, where there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth if it turned out a certain cannon was modeled with too high a ROF or something, yet when it comes to bombing accuracy we have something equivalent to arcade-relaxed physics to make gunnery easier, no one bats an eye. Bizarre.

You consistently fail to realize that AH is a game.

[The Fugitive]

<snip>

I was fooling around with a (single) Mossie XVI bomber yesterday, sniping GV's and objects (dar, field guns) from 6-8k with 500 lbers. The method was to make a pass and observe the v-field through F6 view to locate objects/vehicles, make a 5-6G U-turn, wait 20 seconds, make another 5-6G U-turn, hold "Y" 3 seconds a few seconds before the drop, bomb the object/GV - repeat up to 6 times. In between I sometimes had to dodge a tempest and/or a 109. The only reason some of my bombs missed is because my speed was always around or in excess of 300 mph, which left me very little time to put the cross-hair on a tiny GV once I see it through F6, so I made some proximity drops in the hope the blast radius will get them.

You have to remember this is YOUR experience at work. Picture a newb trying the same thing. Picture him running 1000 runs during his 2 week trial, how many "hits" would he get?

You and I wouldn't mind the "challenge" added but it would drive away the newbs. Make it optional.... LOL!!! nobody would use it. How many people have turned off the auto take off? While I have learned how take off and land with out any help from the game I have long since turned it back on. After I die a horrible death I just hit the launch button and as my plane rolls, climbs out Im AFK grabbing a beer, using the bathroom, knocking down the wife ack  Im sure there are a VAST majority of players who still use auto take off.

If you make things harder newbs wont play, give them an option and they wont use it as most people wont, so why waste the time to implement it?

[BnZs]

You consistently fail to realize that AH is a game.

It is a game that is supposed to simulate real physics for the equipment. It is very high fidelity when it comes to flight, ballistics of gun projectiles, the interaction of force and angle when it comes to piercing armor, and the pilot's biological limitations on G and stick forces. Thus real gunnery principles work, real ACM works, etc. The level bombing accuracy represents a glaring and inexplicable exception which allows level buffs to be used in a way that was impossible in real life. If the fighter gunnery modeling allowed regular 2000 yard air-to-air kills, most people would (rightfully) object to this unrealistic extreme.

[bozon]

You have to remember this is YOUR experience at work. Picture a newb trying the same thing. Picture him running 1000 runs during his 2 week trial, how many "hits" would he get?

I don't need to picture - I can recall.
During my 2 weeks trial do you know how many planes I shot down while in a fighter? One (1). Even that kill was on my last day and I still thought this was the most amazing game I have ever seen (never played air warrior or warbirds). Shelling out those 24.95$ (or was it 34.95$ back in 2001?) was one the easiest decision I ever made (the phone bill hurt me a lot more).

This is a difficult game because it uses as close to real physics as it can. 13 years later and I still learn new moves and analyze some of my fights that I lost. Face it, a two weeker will suck no matter what. By pulling it in the arcade direction you may get a few more noobs to subscribe, but far fewer will still be playing 13 years from now. Arcades are play and toss games. Of course, adding elves, RPG elements, AI-assisted mouse flying, and micro transactions will get you 10 times the number of players, but then will this be aces high? Please note that in what I suggested, bombers are still an order of magnitude more accurate than in real life and can still snipe structures and GVs from orbit - it just gets a bit more difficult with altitude, that is it.