Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human

[BnZs]

Please note that in what I suggested, bombers are still an order of magnitude more accurate than in real life and can still snipe structures and GVs from orbit - it just gets a bit more difficult with altitude, that is it.

Right, and why is this more acceptable than a gunnery modeling that allowed regular 2,000 yard kills? There is no difference between the two except one is the status quo and the other is not.

[Karnak]

Right, and why is this more acceptable than a gunnery modeling that allowed regular 2,000 yard kills? There is no difference between the two except one is the status quo and the other is not.

Fighters regularly get kills at ranges beyond the longest ranged gun kills in WWII in AH.  It isn't different.

[bustr]

Karnak,

With the hit bubble gone, now days those kills are more of a pleasant surprise for the majority. Rather than the norm it once was. Bombs still can be dropped in a small swimming pool from 20k on demand. Too often a player will orbit around in a wide circle using the dt command, and pickle off a few bombs 5 seconds after the VH and radar comes back up. Or even the FH.

Still I take out town centers from level flight at 2000ft in a box of lancasters by toggling off the bombs the moment the buildings pass under my nose from the pilots seat. I have better things to do with my time than climb to 20k to be safe and use the bomb sight. The town ack kills off some of the drones and I get to shoot at fighters until they tower me. But, their town center is down while more piggies are on the way to finish it off. And I don't have to bother with the time flying back to land. Up a fighter and come back for the fun.

[Karnak]

Karnak,

With the hit bubble gone, now days those kills are more of a pleasant surprise for the majority. Rather than the norm it once was. Bombs still can be dropped in a small swimming pool from 20k on demand. Too often a player will orbit around in a wide circle using the dt command, and pickle off a few bombs 5 seconds after the VH and radar comes back up. Or even the FH.

Still I take out town centers from level flight at 2000ft in a box of lancasters by toggling off the bombs the moment the buildings pass under my nose from the pilots seat. I have better things to do with my time than climb to 20k to be safe and use the bomb sight. The town ack kills off some of the drones and I get to shoot at fighters until they tower me. But, their town center is down while more piggies are on the way to finish it off. And I don't have to bother with the time flying back to land. Up a fighter and come back for the fun.

I have played online more since the hit bubble was removed than I did when the hit bubble existed.  I, personally, have killed fighters from a fighter at over 1000 yards on multiple occasions.  The longest range kill I am aware of in WWII was Beurling's freakish 800 yard kill of a Bf109.  The rate at which fighters kill other fighters at long range is much higher in AH compared to WWII.  We don't have wing flex going on, we don't have prop wash, we don't have turbulence.  It all adds up to making long range kills far, far more common in AH than they were in reality.

[kvuo75]

Too often a player will orbit around in a wide circle using the dt command, and pickle off a few bombs 5 seconds after the VH and radar comes back up. Or even the FH.

that's pretty good airmanship if so.

good for them!

[caldera]

Limit fighters to 500lbs total ordnance capacity and then you can talk about making it harder on the bombers.

Late War heavy fighters have supplanted bombers for the most part, except in V Base attacks.  Far quicker and easier to overwhelm a defense than climbing to alt in much more vulnerable bombers.

[bozon]

Limit fighters to 500lbs total ordnance capacity and then you can talk about making it harder on the bombers.

Late War heavy fighters have supplanted bombers for the most part, except in V Base attacks.  Far quicker and easier to overwhelm a defense than climbing to alt in much more vulnerable bombers.

I was always a supporter of the perk ordnance idea that included the 1000 lbs. Not going to happen anytime soon.

You are wrong about heavy fighters. The are preferred for porking the ords and troops (dont need the 1000 lbers for that), but they are inefficient in dropping hangars - unless they come in a horde. A single heavy fighter can at best kill one hangar. By the time it did 3 trips to kill 3 FH on a small field, the first one will pop back up. A single heavy bomber (with drones) can shut down a small field in two passes by itself. All the hangars are destroyed in a short time span which means fighters are disabled for longer. Same goes for the 2 VHs on a V-base. If he does to the toilet with the newspaper while the bomber is on auto climb and gets to 20+k, there is almost nil chance that anyone will be high enough to stop him. Newspaper in the toilet should not guarantee you close the field.

Of course 3 heavy fighters can achieve the same thing, assuming they do not miss the drop - which they often do if they try to survive. The same 3 players flying in a 9 bombers box will have an excellent chance of achieving the same objective. More over, if they are not shot down on the first pass, they will still have plenty of bombs left for other structures, the town, the dar, or even just sniping the ack nests with one bomb each. Except bomber pilots very rarely join with other bomber pilots. I do not remember the last time I saw a tight 9 bombers box, not on a strats raid.

[BnZs]

  I, personally, have killed fighters from a fighter at over 1000 yards on multiple occasions.

I assume this was with nose-mounted Hispanos? Even if this is the case, this makes you one of the gunnery gods of AH, if not the premier one. I've been playing since 2006 and I don't know if I remember a single specific incidence of being killed at D1000. All my experience confirms that most pilots in most planes most of the time are simply wasting ammo outside of 500 yards, as was the case in WWII. That said, most of our guns are *physically* capable of thousand yard shooting, it is a matter of pilot skill, and some of our pilots have literal decades of gunnery practice. Recall that in Korea, the radar-ranging gunsight brought 1,000 yard hits into the real of plausibility for F-86 pilots. Our pilots don't have any such aids, but many do have thousands of times the gunnery practice any real pilot had, so thus some freakish shooting is to be expected. Compare this to the situation Bozon brought up, where bomber pilots snipe with an accuracy that probably IS physically implausible with no especially high level of skill whatsoever.

The rate at which fighters kill other fighters at long range is much higher in AH compared to WWII.  We don't have wing flex going on, we don't have prop wash, we don't have turbulence.  It all adds up to making long range kills far, far more common in AH than they were in reality.

I don't think this is really true, as I outlined above. Prop wash is an illogical thing to bring up in regards to long range shooting, as it would effect stability at close range much more than long range. In any case, there is considerable dispersion built into all guns to simulate such miscellany. Just type .target 1000, hit autolevel, and try it for yourself. Even with nose-mounted packages, the pattern made by fighter-mounted guns at 1000 yards is more accurately described as a "cloud" than a grouping. If we extrapolate this dispersion as compared to the sniping possible with bombs at 10, 15, 20K, then it is quite possibly the case that unguided munitions in this game are in some respects more accurate than gunfire!!!

[BnZs]

Not only is all this true, but fighters carrying 2000+ pounds of bombs and rockets don't enjoy all that much of a performance advantage over many buffs (I've tested this) AND unlike bomber formations, they are nearly helpless to defend themselves without dumping their ord. Any reasonablye LW fighter can run them down from a co-alt start (remember they don't have the lazer ack of heavy bomber formations so a dead six chase isn't a problem) and force them to pickle their bombs or perish.

I was always a supporter of the perk ordnance idea that included the 1000 lbs. Not going to happen anytime soon.

You are wrong about heavy fighters. The are preferred for porking the ords and troops (dont need the 1000 lbers for that), but they are inefficient in dropping hangars - unless they come in a horde. A single heavy fighter can at best kill one hangar. By the time it did 3 trips to kill 3 FH on a small field, the first one will pop back up. A single heavy bomber (with drones) can shut down a small field in two passes by itself. All the hangars are destroyed in a short time span which means fighters are disabled for longer. Same goes for the 2 VHs on a V-base. If he does to the toilet with the newspaper while the bomber is on auto climb and gets to 20+k, there is almost nil chance that anyone will be high enough to stop him. Newspaper in the toilet should not guarantee you close the field.

Of course 3 heavy fighters can achieve the same thing, assuming they do not miss the drop - which they often do if they try to survive. The same 3 players flying in a 9 bombers box will have an excellent chance of achieving the same objective. More over, if they are not shot down on the first pass, they will still have plenty of bombs left for other structures, the town, the dar, or even just sniping the ack nests with one bomb each. Except bomber pilots very rarely join with other bomber pilots. I do not remember the last time I saw a tight 9 bombers box, not on a strats raid.

[Zoney]

If he does to the toilet with the newspaper while the bomber is on auto climb and gets to 20+k, there is almost nil chance that anyone will be high enough to stop him.

I would debate that sir.  Even if I'm the only one, that's more than nil.

[BnZs]

Just tested probably the fasest "heavy" jabo, the P-51D with a max ord load. At 10,000 feet, the highest speed I could attain (running out the WEP) was close to 350 mph. The most ubiquitous fighter in the game, another P-51D, has about a 60mph speed advantage, while the second most ubiquitous, the SpitXVI has about a 40mph speed advantage, as does the La7. The very common hunter, the Fw-190D9, has the same WEP speed as the P-51D at that alt and has 9 minutes of WEP...you get the idea. Jabos are completely defenseless against being run down and forced to choose between being killed and pickling ordnance by numerous common fighters in the game.

[BnZs]

I would debate that sir.  Even if I'm the only one, that's more than nil.

Bozon's is the common game experience which your odd behavior does not refute Zoney. I do not intend disrespect Sir, but for most players your hunting practices would be sadomasochistic exercises in boredom almost as extreme as *real* hunting. Well, you probably don't play at 4:30 in the morning in a room chilled to 38 degrees, but the rest of the comparison stands. 

[Zoney]

Maybe Bnz but I'm the hunter not the hunted so i really wouldn't know.  From the buff pilots perspective, you guys that fly missions above 20k, what percentage would you say your flights are un-apposed?

[Karnak]

Just tested probably the fasest "heavy" jabo, the P-51D with a max ord load. At 10,000 feet, the highest speed I could attain (running out the WEP) was close to 350 mph. The most ubiquitous fighter in the game, another P-51D, has about a 60mph speed advantage, while the second most ubiquitous, the SpitXVI has about a 40mph speed advantage, as does the La7. The very common hunter, the Fw-190D9, has the same WEP speed as the P-51D at that alt and has 9 minutes of WEP...you get the idea. Jabos are completely defenseless against being run down and forced to choose between being killed and pickling ordnance by numerous common fighters in the game.

Try some of the faster heavy fighters.  P-51's 1700hp engine makes it rather poor for hauling ordnance.  Including the climb to 10,000ft the P-38 is the fastest heavy fighter to target, followed by the Mosquito. Adding 2000lbs of bombs and, in the P-38's case 10 rockets, is a smaller percentage increase in weight and drag for the twin engined fighters.  They are also working with about double the P-51's power.

[Karnak]

Maybe Bnz but I'm the hunter not the hunted so i really wouldn't know.  From the buff pilots perspective, you guys that fly missions above 20k, what percentage would you say your flights are un-apposed?

Depends on my bomber.  G4M1, about 66% to 75%, Ki-67, perhaps half of that and almost none in the Mossie XVI.  I fly the Japanese bombers at about 22,000ft and the Mossie at 28,000ft.