A 109 Dweeb Question

[Skyyr]

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

What does a statement, founded in established ACM doctrine, have to do with being fun at parties? Fly any way you please, but there are specific parameters for every kind of fight. Fighting outside of those parameters means you'll get your butt kicked by someone who flies within them.

[caldera]

What does a statement, founded in established ACM doctrine, have to do with being fun at parties? Fly any way you please, but there are specific parameters for every kind of fight. Fighting outside of those parameters means you'll get your butt kicked by someone who flies within them.

I'll reiterate, you must be fun at parties.

[Someguy63]

The problem with a stall fight is that most pilots think the overshoot (and subsequent shot opportunity) is the end-game - those pilots are typically easy kills because all you have to do is avoid the potential deflection shot and your "overshoot" has now turned into a predictable rope... and it's actually very, very effortless to avoid it once you realize the mechanics of what's going on. Once that is realized, overshoots are actually the most effective way to rope an opponent, and I do it quite regularly. Probably 60% of my kills are purposeful overshoots on my part.

This method is usually easy to avoid.

[Changeup]

This method is usually easy to avoid.

Yes.

This is all assuming the slow pilot in the K4 knows how to perform the aaa am required to pull this off correctly and 80%, from my experience, absolutely do not.  Others may chime differently.

The art of stall fighting is in ones ability to force the ac to perform at the end of its speed envelope and then some.  Avoiding pilots close to stall wasn't the question but you did answer it so thank you.

[Skyyr]

This method is usually easy to avoid.

You can't really "avoid" it. You can decide not to get roped and exit your reversal (which is simply the entry portion of a rolling scissors), but all that effectively does is put you back where you started at, with the defender nose-low and the attacker nose-high with an E advantage. This effectively means you're postponing the knife fight or avoiding it altogether, which is exactly what I stated initially - those who pursue knife fights as a first option typically die.

[Zerstorer]

Yes.

This is all assuming the slow pilot in the K4 knows how to perform the aaa am required to pull this off correctly and 80%, from my experience, absolutely do not.  Others may chime differently.

P.S edit: You should be skilled in defense tactics ACM maneuvers to be able to perform well in this plane.

While I agree with these statements... the same can be said for any other figher in the plane set ...some of which are far more difficult to compete in (e.g. P-40, P-39, Yak-7, bf410, bf-110s, etc) against the majority of LW "monsters" .....like the K4, Ki84, N1K2, etc.

[Someguy63]

You can't really "avoid" it. You can decide not to get roped and exit your reversal (which is simply the entry portion of a rolling scissors), but all that effectively does is put you back where you started at, with the defender nose-low and the attacker nose-high with an E advantage. This effectively means you're postponing the knife fight or avoiding it altogether, which is exactly what I stated initially - those who pursue knife fights as a first option typically die.

Take the altitude advantage by slowly climbing while maintaining a good amount of E..usually the attacker doesn't regain a bit of E from the top of the loop and it is slowly used away...once they are slow and about lose their altitude advantage they are killed or they just run away.

[Skyyr]

Take the altitude advantage by slowly climbing while maintaining a good amount of E..usually the attacker doesn't regain a bit of E from the top of the loop and it is slowly used away...once they are slow and about lose their altitude advantage they are killed or they just run away.

They don't have to loop to come back down on you; in fact, they shouldn't if you are directly below them - this is a mistake made by less experienced pilots. If the attacker goes vertical and then hammerheads, your only options are to meet them head-on or go evasive, with both options draining the defender's E.

Also, if the attacker extends in this situation, it's not running. Literally, they are fighting the best E-fighting aircraft in the game. If they have enough E to extend, then they've managed it correctly (at least in the context of fighting a K4).

[Someguy63]

They don't have to loop to come back down on you; in fact, they shouldn't if you are directly below them - this is a mistake made by less experienced pilots. If the attacker goes vertical and then hammerheads, your only options are to meet them head-on or go evasive, with both options draining the defender's E.

Also, if the attacker extends in this situation, it's not running. Literally, they are fighting the best E-fighting aircraft in the game. If they have enough E to extend, then they've managed it correctly (at least in the context of fighting a K4).

Though extending against a K4 can be a risky move considering how quickly a K4 can accelerate and gain/regain altitude. Usually when I confront someone that does this they end up making another failed pass and continue to "extend" until I get bored and break off. This is why Boelcke's rule includes having to continue and conclude an attack you've already started.

[Randy1]

I have done extensive research on the 109s.  I promise you they do best at 30,000 feet.  I suggest all you 109 drivers go to 30,000 feet  to play and leave me alone. 

[Someguy63]

I have done extensive research on the 109s.  I promise you they do best at 30,000 feet.  I suggest all you 109 drivers go to 30,000 feet  to play and leave me alone. 

 

[Changeup]

While I agree with these statements... the same can be said for any other figher in the plane set ...some of which are far more difficult to compete in (e.g. P-40, P-39, Yak-7, bf410, bf-110s, etc) against the majority of LW "monsters" .....like the K4, Ki84, N1K2, etc.

But we weren't talking about the early war plane set nor were we talking about the German heavy fighters.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone lately get slow and fight in a 110 in a while.  The best I saw was JUGgler and Irishone with a close second being Grizz depending on the day of the week.  I'm sure there are others so don't let your panties hit you in the head over my selection.

I would argue that the P-40 is easier to fly at stall speed than the K4 simple because torque isn't nearly the factor in the 40 because of its weaker engine and its weight.  But the 40 doesn't have the lethality of the 30mm and generally you just get a good spray of 50's that don't do too much damage as you go zooming by.  Additionally, if anyone gets roped by a P-40, they should just kill themselves. 

[DmonSlyr]

But we weren't talking about the early war plane set nor were we talking about the German heavy fighters.  In fact, I haven't seen anyone lately get slow and fight in a 110 in a while.  The best I saw was JUGgler and Irishone with a close second being Grizz depending on the day of the week.  I'm sure there are others so don't let your panties hit you in the head over my selection.

I would argue that the P-40 is easier to fly at stall speed than the K4 simple because torque isn't nearly the factor in the 40 because of its weaker engine and its weight.  But the 40 doesn't have the lethality of the 30mm and generally you just get a good spray of 50's that don't do too much damage as you go zooming by.  Additionally, if anyone gets roped by a P-40, they should just kill themselves. 

I'd say IKO was the best in the 110. He could literally out turn a 109k any day of the week. sheet would piss me off lol.

[Changeup]

I'd say IKO was the best in the 110. He could literally out turn a 109k any day of the week. sheet would piss me off lol.

Ahh...I had forgotten.  Then he and JUGgler would have been a 7 min fight on the deck, lol

[glzsqd]

if anyone gets roped by a P-40, they should just kill themselves. 

the P40C is a TITAN in the verticle

However i would have to respectfully disagree with you when you say the p40 is eaiser to handle at stall speeds than the likes of a k4. Sure torque isn't as much of an issue but it's stall characteristics are the opposite of the 109s forgiving nature. the P40s stalls are violent and abrupt, in my expeirence a prolonged stall in the p40 can be one of the most difficult to recover from with the expection of the 152.

I'm also of the opinion that 6 or even 4 M2 Browning 50 caliber machine guns are the superior armarment to the late war 109s mk108 30mm and pair of cowl mounted mg131. That is unless your going after heavy bombers.

This of course is all just my opinion for the most partbut anyway.
BACK TO 109s! Emil is the best!