need advise on 7.1 sound card

[MrRiplEy[H]]

I do not care for the direction this thread is going, but I have to say.  THD is a minor component in what determines the quality of sound reproduction.

THD, IMD, TIM, phase, amplitude... there are many clear and measureable components. In my understanding there must be still many quantities in audio that we do not yet know how to measure. For example the TIM distortion was all but unknown before a Finnish researcher Tapio M. Köykkä wrote a study about it. His amplifiers with zero negative feedback circuits are still legendary in the audio world.

All this is moot however as long as we talk on the level of technological specifications. The subjective quality of different implementations is known to vary in forms unexplainable by simple measurements.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So you can tell the difference using exspensive audio equipment?

I saw some speakers with valves in a shop

What sort of music requires such equipment

I have some £170  seinheiser momentum headphones, my mrs  bought them for me, i only found out the price other day and nearly fell over

Speakers with valves? That's pretty funky, tell me more

[zack1234]

It was in a specialist audio shop, they did not look like speakers but apparently they were

BOSE speakers are very good i believe, i guy i knew had some they were very small as well

I suppose its like wine if you drink ordinary stuff you dont know any better and when you drink decent stuff you realise the difference.

I was informed that chip based amplifiers were a comprimise and valves were essentially supperior.

Valves look better as well

[MrRiplEy[H]]

It was in a specialist audio shop, they did not look like speakers but apparently they were

BOSE speakers are very good i believe, i guy i knew had some they were very small as well

I suppose its like wine if you drink ordinary stuff you dont know any better and when you drink decent stuff you realise the difference.

I was informed that chip based amplifiers were a comprimise and valves were essentially supperior.

Valves look better as well

Ah that's what I thought you were talking about valve amps in reality. Many high-end audio hobbyists like *tube* i.e. valve amplifiers as opposed to transistor amplifiers (the regular amps). The electron tubes of the old have got a new life in hi-fi and high-end gear. Tube amps give a buttery smooth sound partly because they introduce bucket loads of harmonic distortion to the sound. Their disadvantage is low efficiency and, well, the distortion. Most commonly tube amps require very efficient speakers because they can only output 1 to 10 watts. Some very expensive models can do even 100 watts enabling them to drive regular hi-fi speakers.

There is a special cult of hifi enthusiasts who use super efficient horn speakers or full range cone drivers connected to tube amps. Some very extreme even direct-connect tube amps to electrostatic speakers - but that's extreme because your speaker cables will then contain leathal audio voltages and current. A commercial no-go there

Edit: Direct connect means bypassing the audio transfomer that otherwise is used to transform the tube voltages/impedance for regular speakers. Electrostatic speakers operate using voltages up to 4000 volts when regular speakers typically burn out at 140 volts.

[2bighorn]

Ok lets speak about specs.

What is the THD on the amplifier you use at this time? You do realize that even if your source had 0% THD and your amp introduces 0.005% THD at 1 watts, you end up with 0.005% THD?

So. Your source has 0.000005% THD. My source has 0.000008% THD. After it's played through a hi-fi amp it has 0.00505% and 0.00508% THD, respectively. After you play it through speakers at 10 watts output your amp puts out already 0.01 % THD probably. Then your speakers add another 0.1% or more.

So if I play music using my high-end amplifier and high-end electrostatic speakers that do not add the 0.01% + 0.1% THD but maybe tenth or less of that, I end up with much higher accuracy even when using a totally 'crappy' source. This is because I have addressed the biggest source of distortion in the audio chain.

Grasping for straws...

Do you know why I listed THD? Because you mentioned it one of your "See Rule #4" posts as some important spec. But forget it. You can get all the other specs directly from TI (including all the charts) or other manufactures who are using them in their audio product and yes, there is quite a difference between these two.

From horses mouth (TI)
The OPA134 series (includes OPA2134) are ultra-low distortion, low noise operational amplifiers fully specified for audio applications.
vs
The LME49710 is part of the ultra-low distortion, low noise, high-slew-rate operational amplifier series optimized and fully specified for high-performance, high-fidelity applications.

What else you want to compare between Gigabyte onboard and ZXR?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Grasping for straws...

Do you know why I listed THD? Because you mentioned it one of your "See Rule #4" posts as some important spec. But forget it. You can get all the other specs directly from TI (including all the charts) or other manufactures who are using them in their audio product and yes, there is quite a difference between these two.

From horses mouth (TI)
The OPA134 series (includes OPA2134) are ultra-low distortion, low noise operational amplifiers fully specified for audio applications.
vs
The LME49710 is part of the ultra-low distortion, low noise, high-slew-rate operational amplifier series optimized and fully specified for high-performance, high-fidelity applications.

What else you want to compare between Gigabyte onboard and ZXR?

You're the one gasping for straws here. For reasons I stated earlyer these minor details are not the defining factor by any imaginable stretch. Not only that, Gigabyte left the opamp open socket so you can just pull it out and upgrade it if you think its not good enough for you. 99 users out of 100 would not know the difference if the op amp was changed - and I'm being kind to you there

I would like to compare the DAC quality between the onboard and ZXR. Creative has not publicized the DAC used on-chip but you seem to have some in-circle special information about that. Do share. Are you perhaps a part of the Creative developer team?

[2bighorn]

You're the one gasping for straws here. For reasons I stated earlyer these minor details are not the defining factor by any imaginable stretch. Not only that, Gigabyte left the opamp open socket so you can just pull it out and upgrade it if you think its not good enough for you. 99 users out of 100 would not know the difference if the op amp was changed - and I'm being kind to you there

You're being funny now.

So you're still claiming Gigabyte onboard is better sounding than discrete cards like XST or ZXR?
 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

You're being funny now.

So you're still claiming Gigabyte onboard is better sounding than discrete cards like XST or ZXR?
 

I never claimed that. I claimed that technically there's nothing stopping an onboard solution from matching or exceeding a discrete card. And I showed the Gigabyte board as an example of a higher end implementation of onboard audio.

So do tell me, which DAC does the Core3D have inside it and how does it compare to the DAC of your XST or ZXR? Creative build the Core3D as a replacement chip to the old X-Fi so one would think it's at least comparable to that quality wise. I'm asking you this because you seemed to be very _sure_ that it had an inferior components inside. Since this information is not public, reveal your information please.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

And as edit: Do know that I'm heavily into red wine at the moment (I'm finnish after all) and I appreciate your audio enthusiasm despite the argument. Nothing is more fun than arguing on matters of passion. 

[2bighorn]

On chip DAC is 6ch 24bit, 102dB SNR, ADC is 4ch 24bit 101dB SNR

All public information

[MrRiplEy[H]]

On chip DAC is 6ch 24bit, 102dB SNR, ADC is 4ch 24bit 101dB SNR

All public information

Ok, but which DAC is that? And I hope you realize that even the very best of High-end amplifiers struggle to get 102db SNR For example one of my favourite amps of all time, Mark Levinson No. 334 had only 80db s/n ratio

[zack1234]

Most importantly what music do you listen to?.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Most importantly what music do you listen to?.

I'm into multiple genres. Verdi, Sibelius, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Down tempo (several artists), Tom Waits, Electronic (Daft Punk etc), Drum&bass (hospital records/Tony Colman, Danny Byrd, Gresham brothers, Carlos SPY, Etherwood etc my favourite), Vangelis etc. etc. etc. Marvin Gaye, Royksopp, Aerosmith, Run DMC, Public Enemy, Jungle, Dimitris Mitropanos... The list is too long.

[zack1234]

They are all Poo!

I am off to bed 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

They are all Poo!

I am off to bed 

One mans poo is others fertilizer. You're best off to bed indeed.