OK...so who flies the LA-7?

[Lusche]

no. The comment you quoted has far more to do with handling than acceleration

Look at the messages I quoted. GS says (in reply to triton) that there's no difference at slow speed and Dmon replies "there is a huge difference".
If he meant something different with that, he should have written it.

And again, Triton brough the accel issue back in. That's why I posted my acceleration comparison tests.

[mechanic]

Look at the messages I quoted. GS says (in reply to triton) that there's no difference at slow speed and Dmon replies "there is a huge difference".
If he meant something different with that, he should have written it.

And again, Triton brough the accel issue back in. That's why I posted my acceleration comparison tests.

Triton asked a question to which the answer is 'Yes, there is a slight acceleration difference'. How important that difference is being not related to Triton's question.

Dmon did not say 'there is a huge difference' in the context of acceleration. He said that 10-20mph can make a huge difference in a slow fight and he is right about that.





One side of this debate is made up of people who have countless hours of experience in 1v1 fighting on the edge of the envelope but not much regard for speed charts. These are the people who think the player can 'feel' the aircraft. X plane has a great character in the stall where as Y plane starts to feel unstable a little earlier, lets keep flying them and see what we can learn.

The other side is made up of people who lack that specific type of experience and prefer to make judgements based off data collected by others. These are the people who consider everything to be a mathematical equation and have no regard for intuition in controlling the aircraft. X plane does this, Y plane does that, end of discussion.

Solving this debate is like trying to make the South and North Poles agree to meet in Africa.  

[GScholz]

There is no difference in handling at or close to stall speed that I can detect. Until proven otherwise I'll continue to think it's all in your head. No offense intended.

[Lusche]

Dmon did not say 'there is a huge difference' in the context of acceleration. He said that 10-20mph can make a huge difference in a slow fight and he is right about that.

What 10-20 mph then? If the fight is slow, both on are the same footing acceleration wise. The La-7 won't suddenly gain 10-20 mph over the La-5 from the same start. Only when the fight is already very fast the La-7 enjoys that speed advantage. But one one disputed the latter one. A

The other side is made up of people who lack that specific type of experience and prefer to make judgements based off data collected by others. These are the people who consider everything to be a mathematical equation and have no regard for intuition in controlling the aircraft. X plane does this, Y plane does that, end of discussion.

And some people will just either assume or make up anything about others not sharing the same subjective perception over handling instead of arguing on topic. Like I said "cheap shots", as "have you ever deliberately flown a plane at the edge" was a loaded question from the start.

And I don't even said "there is no difference in handling". That would be an absolute statement, which I didn't feel entitled to. I very much made clear it's just a subjective statement:

I don't feel any significant difference between those two in handling, stability and so on. As far as I am concerned, they virtually fly and fight the same to be, only notable differences are high speed acceleration and top speed

Oh, and I actually took them both out in the TA to explore they slow speed maneuverability and stall behaviour again before I wrote that, just to make sure my memories from dogfights in the main or the TA didn't fool me.





 

[mechanic]

There is no difference in handling at or close to stall speed that I can detect. Until proven otherwise I'll continue to think it's all in your head. No offense intended.

No offence taken at all, this is only a discussion about cartoon planes. However, my main issue with your standpoint has been that one cannot 'feel' anything about the handling in this game.

What 10-20 mph then? If the fight is slow, both on are the same footing acceleration wise. The La-7 won't suddenly gain 10-20 mph over the La-5 from the same start. Only when the fight is already very fast the La-7 enjoys that speed advantage. But one one disputed the latter one.  

I am not disputing that, I only accurately repeated a quote from someone else that you only half repeated.

And some people will just either assume or make up anything about others not sharing the same subjective perception over handling instead of arguing on topic. Like I said "cheap shots", as "have you ever deliberately flown a plane at the edge" was a loaded question from the start.

That is not a cheap shot. It is a genuine question. I have never been disrespectful to you in the long time I have known you in this game, why would I start now? Perhaps you need to ask yourself why I even had to ask you that question. Why is it that I am in doubt that you have done these things with nearly a decade of knowing you and seeing you fly in the MA?

And I don't even said "there is no difference in handling". That would be an absolute statement, which I didn't feel entitled to. I very much made clear it's just a subjective statement:

Oh, and I actually took them both out in the TA to explore they slow speed maneuverability and stall behaviour again before I wrote that, just to make sure my memories from dogfights in the main or the TA didn't fool me.

Actually, this started when I was told 'you cannot feel any difference in handling between them, you are imagining it'

Your test is 90% useless. To recreate a real environment I will offer that we both spend a few hours fighting intensively. Perhaps 30-40 fights in a row in each plane individually. Then again mismatched, you in the 5, me in the 7, then visa versa. Only then will we each begin to have a realistic understanding of what the edge of each plane's flight envelope feels like.

I will not post in this thread again because all we will do is go in circles. Consider my offer of TA/DA time. We might both learn something. It might even be fun.

S!
batfink





 

[GScholz]

No offence taken at all, this is only a discussion about cartoon planes. However, my main issue with your standpoint has been that one cannot 'feel' anything about the handling in this game.

Not quite right. The "feel" is obviously there, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Where we differ is on where this "feel" comes from. You're claiming it is from a difference in stall-fighting performance between the La-5 and La-7. I'm claiming it is only your imagination or preconception. To me they are the same low and slow.

[BaldEagl]

Certainly any change in aerodynamics will create differences in aircraft handling regardless of speed.  Even those arguing with statistics have admitted these changes between the La-5 and La-7.  So why is it so hard to believe there can be differences in "feel"?

A case in point:  Several months ago there was a discussion in the Help and Training forum on the A6M vs the F4F.  Going strictly by the stats no one in their right mind would engage an A6M with an F4F, however, during the Pacific War scenario the F4F dominated the A6M in every frame.

Another case in point:  Several years ago in this very forum there was a conversation regarding Spitfires.  I claimed that the Spits held E like no other.  Saxman IIRC stated that Spits bled E like crazy with the throttle off.  He was correct in his assessment, however, under power you'd be hard pressed to get a Spit to slow significantly even in a max G turn.

Bat's been around for years, living much of that in the DA and is one of the better fighter pilots in the game.  I believe the numbers presented to be valid but, I find myself hard pressed to totally discount bat's experience.  Just like the examples above, there's probably more to this than meets the eye.

[GScholz]

You're comparing completely different aircraft. These minor changes, mostly in the engine cowling will not change the handling of the La. Case in point: There are two people in this thread who both claim they can "feel" a difference in low-speed handling between the 5 and 7. Only problem is they "feel" the exact opposite of each other; one thinks the 7 "feels" better while the other thinks the 5 "feels" better.

[pipz]

I said the la5 feels more stable when slow I didn't say it was better. I think the 7 is flat out better.

[pipz]

In reference to the LA7. Squadron book La5/7 fighters. page 37.

"additionally , refinements to the elevators resulted in reduced control stick forces."

[GScholz]

Again... only pertains to high speed situations.

[GScholz]

I said the la5 feels more stable when slow I didn't say it was better. I think the 7 is flat out better.

We are only talking about "when slow" here. Do you consider "more stable" to be better or worse?

[BaldEagl]

You're comparing completely different aircraft. These minor changes, mostly in the engine cowling will not change the handling of the La.

They are different aircraft in my first example but that's simply to show that stats (very basic ones) don't tell the whole story.

In my second example the aircraft is the very same with no modifications whatsoever.  This example illustrates that a simply measured statistic (throttle off in level flight and measure speed decrease) tells nothing of e-retention in powered flight.

Your argument so far is based on three very simple statistics; speed, climb rate and acceleration.  Couldn't it be there's differences in roll rate, stall characteristics, control authority, e-retention and a whole host of other aerodynamic factors you're not accounting for?

I'm not taking sides in this debate but from my perspective your argument is as flat as the world you see around you and standing firm in your simplified stats against all other perspectives marginalizes your argument.

Bat offered a very reasonable solution; go to the DA, fight five times with one in one plane and the other in the other then switch planes and do it again.  My bet in an on the deck duel is the LA-7 wins more often.

I guess I did take sides.

[GScholz]

Couldn't it be there's differences in roll rate, stall characteristics, control authority, e-retention and a whole host of other aerodynamic factors you're not accounting for?

Both planes have the same wings, the same control surfaces and cockpit controls, same fuselage, same engine. You can "feel" all the difference you want. Doesn't change the facts.

I grow tired of repeating myself...

[DmonSlyr]

You just don't get it do ya Scottie

Oh, and yeah 20 mph makes a big difference in a slow fight. It comes down to which plane can flip over more quickly and still retain E better causing the other to flutter out in the stall. The La7 can gain this advantage, which can allow it to be better in a slow fight. However, the la5 may be able to roll inside of it at slower speeds. While the planses may be considered "close" on paper, one plane is better adept to handling planes in the MA, and that is the LA7. You cant agrue that either. The overall 20-40 mph speed difference makes a hell of a difference in the MA.

Your own charts are showing you square in the face that these planes are not that identical, the speed chart is my opinion the biggest indication, givin this one simple "fact" that this plane incurs around 20 mph more speed at any givin point flying straight tells me that it can out climb the La5 in a straight up verticle climb to the top, while also being able to dive more quickly as well.

No matter what you say, the la7 is a better overall fighter in the MA and does have all around better performance charts than the LA5, even if they are close. It is obvious that one can feel these differences in their flying as well. Therefore, both of these statements validate that the La7 is a better overall fighter with better performance.