Author Topic: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all  (Read 1467 times)

Offline RotBaron

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 11:47:30 PM »
And I have yet to find one single person explain to me how the term is actually degrading.

The name is not used as a derogatory one. I have never in my life heard anyone refer to any Native American as a "Redskin"; only the football team. On AMC's Hell On Wheels last year I heard them insert the term into the dialogue as if it were a commonly used phrased; yeahhh right. It would never have been acceptable if it were once used back then as such.

In AZ we have lots of reservations, you'll see team mascots named the Redskins and you'll see many Native Americans here wearing Redskins apparel; go figure if it's soooo derogatory.

At my High School there was a large group of Native Amercians that ran together; most of them wore Redskins apparel...

This was a red herring provided by Bob Costas & Co. to supplant the Benghazi investigation.
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2014, 11:48:30 PM »
1.) No matter the subject, someone will ALWAYS take offense to something someone else says.  It's human nature.  Thus, the idea of PC is in and of itself silly.

2.) It's curious how issues like this get "brought to light" every so often.  It's even more curious that these "issues" are brought up about the same time that other, far more serious concerns start making the news and/or certain political events are taking place.  :headscratch:

3.) I've always found it amusing how some of my fellow citizens, who are usually the supporters / standard bearers for non-issue "issues" like this, have no clue whatsoever about how easily they are being manipulated.  I guess Lenin and Stalin were right about "useful idiots".  :lol

Bread and circuses, anyone? :aok
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 11:51:13 PM »

This was a red herring provided by Bob Costas & Co. to supplant the Benghazi investigation.


 :lol :aok

Costas isn't smart enough (he is also a "useful idiot").....but I'm sure someone higher up the food chain saw the advantages.

The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 12:16:25 AM »
And I have run across far fewer the thought the name was unacceptable. And run across very few (by far the minority) native Americans that find the word degrading.

Even among NFL fans a poll conducted only showed 10% found the name unacceptable.

And how are they being degraded? I dont know of a single soul who refers to native americans as "redskins" In fact anyone I know who even mentions the word "redskins" automatically assumes it is in reference to a football team.

Either way. If you (anyone) feels a word degrades you. It is only because you allow it to. Not because it is in fact degrading. Words only have the power over you that you allow them to have.

You dont have the right ot not feel degraded because of a word or something some one said. If that were the case there would be very few people in government as all one would need to do is look at some of the things stated in campaigns.

And your perceived right to not be degraded does not trump anothers actual honest to goodness actually written down right to free speech. It is the same right that one has to complain about a name that gives the one complained about to use it.

Things like liberty and freedom arent just about having the words and names you like. But also the ones you dont. Otherwise its neither liberty nor freedom



Perhaps right is not the correct word, and note how the legality of using the term is not being called into question.
There's just a common shift in our cultural thinking that has gone to 'if this word disenfranchises a group of people, or even a subset of a group of people, why use it?' This goes beyond enacting legislation or anything like that, but just setting cultural standards of what is or is not acceptable to say, and what will earn you criticism from society at large (it's also important to note that people using their free speech to criticize others' free speech is not a violation of either groups')
There's been a huge shift in this probably even within the past 10 or 20 years. I guess this is what makes a lot of people upset, especially because it's happening so rapidly.
It's something I first came to realize when I was studying FCC regulations for radio broadcast - especially the comparison of terms that are considered kosher after 10pm compared to the words that are banned at all times. Words like f*g, f*gg*t and d*ke are fine as per the FCC as long as you reserve their use for after 10pm - while, outside of the dated FCC regulations, in a working modern context these words are far more insulting and taboo than practically anything on the FCC ban list. Even words like retard are largely being phased out of regular speech (this is of course among younger people primarily, not people from, example, my parents generation who grew up with these words being insults, but the taboo of the word coming from being associated with that group rather than the word being a demeaning way to refer to that group). I remember going over these lists with my friends and "colleagues" and basically saying things along the lines of 'yeah, this is technically legal, but why would you ever say that?' Suffice to say it would be highly problematic if these words were actually used, just because they don't agree with modern cultural standards.
When our station voluntarily blacklisted the use of the word 'redskin' (after receiving a joint letter from a host of Native American activist organizations, granted it probably would have been phased out either way) it was done practically unanimously- again, with the thought, 'if there are people who find this offensive, why would we want to say it?' It comes down to: what's the point?

Quote
Either way. If you (anyone) feels a word degrades you. It is only because you allow it to. Not because it is in fact degrading. Words only have the power over you that you allow them to have.
I mean that's really easy to say when you've never actually had to deal with a deeply rooted words in a culture that is historically deeply rooted against you.
I think a large part of the shift in thinking that has led people to grow tired with  the proliferation of the flow of this sort of language is a demographic shift. More and more people are either effected by this type of thing, and, more importantly, even among those not effected, it's easier to see how it effects your friends, family, etc. I think this is to some extent less stark as it relates to issues of race and discrimination/stereotyping on that front, but as we see how negatively it effects, say, women, it does make the somewhat more subtle effects it has on racial minorities more apparent.
And while we're removing one aspect of that from being acceptable in our culture, why not just remove all of it? It's easier that way.
The new golden rule is simply 'don't be a dick'

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2014, 12:29:41 AM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:50:06 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2014, 12:43:55 AM »
See Rule #6
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:50:29 AM by Skuzzy »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Triton28

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
      -AoM-


Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2014, 12:51:05 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)
I have a feeling that Stephen Fry would be very ashamed to have that quote associated with him today, or that you're taking that quote out of context
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohrtFuxUzZE

Cultural standards on these issues are rising daily
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 12:53:16 AM by Motherland »

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2014, 01:14:24 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dXAkxbyQg
So he was talking about using language to criticize ideas/beliefs, speaking against a blasphemy law, not defending the use of words to degrade groups of people.
Which he obviously has a huge problem with. As per the video I posted.

So it was taken out of context. Thanks for owning up to it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:17:40 AM by Motherland »

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2014, 01:20:53 AM »
No. He simply feels that the phrase "I'm offended by that" and similar whining is meaningless and deserves no respect whatsoever. If you're offended by something then do something about it, or don't. In either case don't just whine "I'm offended by that", as if you have the right to demand that others respect your feelings and your sensitivities.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline RotBaron

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2014, 04:34:05 AM »
Motherland:

Do you believe a small, loud and demanding group of people are entitled to dictate to the masses what the rest of society should do, how they should behave and what is acceptable in everyone's daily lives right down to nutrition label on a package of candy?

If so, I'll let this one go.

If not, stop following the red herring; look up the Oneida tribe, research the history of the name change movement ($); see what they want and think about why & when this issue gained popularity going on two years ago. Look who inserted himself into the conversation; before that it had been a stagnant and dead movement with little change in opinion for as long as I've been a Redskin fan (35 yrs).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 04:40:41 AM by RotBaron »
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2014, 06:05:38 AM »
Motherland:

Do you believe a small, loud and demanding group of people are entitled to dictate to the masses what the rest of society should do, how they should behave and what is acceptable in everyone's daily lives right down to nutrition label on a package of candy?

If so, I'll let this one go.

If not, stop following the red herring; look up the Oneida tribe, research the history of the name change movement ($); see what they want and think about why & when this issue gained popularity going on two years ago. Look who inserted himself into the conversation; before that it had been a stagnant and dead movement with little change in opinion for as long as I've been a Redskin fan (35 yrs).

Well said.

The only thing I would add is this: It's a very fine line between a nanny state and a police state.... and that line is easy to cross. You might, just might, get to see how easy it is in the near future.
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Dichotomy

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12386
Re: Time to change the Washington Redskins Name - Once and for all
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2014, 07:16:00 AM »
Funny thign about the "Redskin" name is I dont know of anyone who refers to native americans as redskins even in a derogatory sense anymore. And anyone I do hear use the term "redskins" is in reference to the football team.

But if we are goign ot take offence over team names there are other names we need to remove as well.

"The GIANTS" promotes and mocks obesity
"the Brewers" promotes alcoholism
And what about the atrocities the "49ers" committed during the gold rush against the native American population?
And we also need to get rid of the names "Padres","Saints" and "Angels" because those names most assuredly must be offensive to atheists
The name and insignia of "The Raiders" promotes violent thievery and illegal piracy. As does the name "Pirates" and "Buccaneers"
Surely any true freedom loving American hates "The Reds"
And what about the near extermination of the Buffalo that "Buffalo Bill" took part of? Naturalists must take offense at that name "Buffalo Bills" too.
We all know that Southerners are offended by "The Yankees". Can you imagine the hubbub that there would be a if a professional team named themselves the "Johnny Rebs"?
And what about the "Cowboys" who helped drive the native Americans from their lands? Arent they offended at that too?
Vikings. Im sure some Englanders out these must be concerned about a name that represents the raping and pillaging of their country
"Orlando Magic" Magic has long been associated with witchcraft. Religious types are now offended
"Royals"...Well we dont have royalty in this country. In fact this country was formed to get away from royalty. The true blue american patriotic must hate this name.
PETA must be offended at the "Packer" name

The list of absurdities can go on and on.

Heres the sad part. We now live in a world where peoplethink they have the right to not only not be offended. But feel they have the right to not be offended at anything. And not only that but they feel they have the right to demand that people care if they are offended.

Here is the deal.
You have every right to be offended over anything you like however serious, absurd, or silly it may be. What you do NOT have the right of is to not be offended or to expect the world to care or do anything about it if you are.

Lets face it. There are plenty of things in the world that are truely worth being offended over. Child molestation and/or abuse, starvation, Rape, Murder, theft. Etc

But a word or a name? Gimme a break. What wonderful shape this world must be in that peoples biggest concern is what a team is named or what one person calls another.

It seems to me that if people or groups put half as much emphasis and effort into dealing with the problems that exist within their own group for example in the case of the word "redskins" the rampant drug and alcohol abuse problem that exists, as they do with worrying what names or words other people use. They would be far better off and in the end happier and more prosperous






Indeed  :cheers:
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:51:44 AM by Skuzzy »
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.