Author Topic: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)  (Read 4028 times)

Offline RedAgony

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 10:22:31 AM »
Thanks for asking JRJolly!  I have this same problem too, but it really depends on judging energy states.  I am interested to hear the answers!
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2014, 10:33:36 AM »
A good way to conserve E (I think so anyways) is to get your wingtip pointed at the enemy and keep it pointed at him. Once you get it pointed at him then you won't have to pull very hard to keep it there. The sooner you notice your attacker making a run at you, the sooner you can start saving E. If you see him coming in from 2K away then you can be rather gentle on the controls and get the wingtip pointed at him at close to the last moment. If you only notice him at say 1000 out then you're going to have to pull some higher G's and bleed more speed in order to avoid the shot. The closure speeds will help you decide on when you need to go to "2.)". If he's closing really fast then you can pull up and into him a little further out (800-600 icon), but if he's not really closing that fast (shallow dive or he cut his throttle) then you'll need to wait until he gets closer (400 icon or as he's about to pull the trigger) or else you'll be giving him your 6.

Sounds like you might be pulling too hard if you're having difficulties saving speed. I'll check out my films folder since I probably have something in there showing defensive flying against a higher opponent. I'll post one if I can find one so you can see how tight or loose I'm pulling in certain situations.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2014, 10:36:48 AM »
I don't like flat turns. If you have speed, start a climbing turn in one direction or the other. Tighten the turn as the boomer closes so that your wing is pointing at him as he does his guns pass.

This give you that "climb to his level" Latrobe was talking about.

If you don't have speed do the opposite,  start a nose down turn, no then drastic like a split s but enough to start building speed with out giving up all your alt. Again tighten the turn to point your wing at him for his guns pass.

This helps you build your speed with out giving away all your alt/potential energy.

2 or 3 of either passes can equalize the energy state and get you on the offensive.


Edit, I hate typing on a phone. :)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 10:38:42 AM by The Fugitive »

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2014, 11:25:17 AM »
Here's a little clip I found of me flying defensive against an aggressive and rather skilled opponent who had more altitude than me.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/h8lvkqd8h4okusp/2+109f+fights_0721.ahf

Starts off with me seeing a 109 coming in from high at 3K away. I get the wingtips pointed at him and keep them there. This keeps my flightpath perpendicular to his and set for the overshoot and also keeps my turn loose and saving speed. Once I see him break off his attack (he knows it's a bad approach) I let off my turn, level off, and start trying to gain some extra speed. He starts his next attack run from about my 8 oclock and 1000 out, so I pull HARD left into him and get the wingtips pointed towards him. As soon as he gets into gun range I immediately roll right and pull hard into the vertical avoiding his shot. Rolling right gives me a brief window of opportunity to get a shot and he's fairly close but I don't land any hits and he quickly pulls out of my gun range. I know he has more speed than me so I don't even try to climb with him. Instead I level off and regain some of that speed I lost in my maneuvers to avoid his shot. He knows I'm trying to rebuild my speed and goes aggressive and dives on me again from 800 above me. I pull HARD right and into him and also climb a bit to gain some altitude. As he gets to gun range I reverse my turn in anticipation  for the overshoot. He misses and then makes a mistake of not climbing again. He had about 20mph on me and we were in the same plane, so I would not have been able to hang in the vertical for as long as him. Had he gone up again I would have been force to dive and give up some altitude to regain a lot of the speed I lost, but since he makes the mistake of coming down to me now I can actually climb up and into him, get on his tail, and get the kill.

At the start I had plenty of room to work with and pulled a low G turn to conserve a lot of my speed (note how my speed stays around 240), but as the fight progresses my opponent keeps in close to me and stay very aggressive. This forced me to pull tighter turns and bleed off a lot of my speed and I was forced to stay level instead of going offensive in order to regain the lost speed. I ended up losing 100mph on the 1st attack run. I built up about 40mph going level but my opponent stayed aggressive and I was forced to turn again (lose of 60mph). Again I lose 100mph on the next attack run but this is also where my opponent makes the mistake of not climbing back up. Had the pattern continue I would be around 150mph on his next attack run. This would not be enough speed to avoid his shot since he is sticking close to me and I would be forced to give up altitude.

Offline jolly22

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2014, 12:01:25 PM »
Thanks for asking JRJolly!  I have this same problem too, but it really depends on judging energy states.  I am interested to hear the answers!

No thank you! I have the same problem and I often put myself in the defenders position to see what I should or could do!

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Offline Puma44

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2014, 12:24:21 PM »
What do you mean? What if he doesn't turn? Then he dies.

If he doesn't bleed his energy off?

If he doesn't extend out?

If he doesn't climb up to you?

If he doesn't do what you expect him to do?

If he is unpredictable?




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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2014, 01:07:21 PM »
If he doesn't bleed his energy off?

If he doesn't extend out?

If he doesn't climb up to you?

If he doesn't do what you expect him to do?

If he is unpredictable?



If he's not bleeding his energy off then he's not turning very hard which most likely means he has plenty of room to make low G turns. If you stick in close to them like in the film I posted above then he will have to turn tighter and he will bleed energy, and if he doesn't then he's an energy wizard on a skill level far beyond my comprehension. You can always force your opponent to bleed energy.

If he doesn't extend and instead tries to stick with you then you can easily rope him up as you will most likely have a speed advantage. Even something like a 109K4 won't be able to climb up with a P-40 doing 500 mph unless the K4 is doing maybe 350mph which he won't be unless you really messed up your attack approach and he didn't even have to turn. BnZing you always want to be attacking from their rear. This forces them to have to turn and bleed speed. If you miss then climb, get above them again, and make another attack before they can regain the speed they lost.

If they don't try to climb with you then, as I stated before, get above them again, and make another attack before they can regain their lost speed.

If they don't do what you expect and are unpredictable then they are really new pilots. Good pilots are predictable. They will always pull the move that will best benfit them in the situation they find themselves in. The new pilots don't know what move is the best to pull in order to win the fight so they pull moves that make you think "What is he doing?" Once you know they're new then you should be able to easily beat them (and then give them some tips I hope :) )


That's just how I see all this BnZ stuff. I don't know if it's right or not, I'm not a real pilot. Hopefully I'm not giving wrong advise.  :uhoh

Offline FLS

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2014, 01:12:12 PM »
You want to keep working your opponent's speed down when BnZing. If you're extending away then he levels off to chase you and builds speed back up. Your opponent will bleed a bit of speed making his defensive turn against your initial attack. If you miss then immediately go back into the vertical. They will be low on speed after avoiding your shot and will bleed even more speed if they attempt to climb with you, which they won't be able to do anyways since you will have such a big speed advantage.


Good advice Latrobe.  The target has limited options and regaining your perch keeps you in control of the fight.

Offline glzsqd

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2014, 02:47:16 PM »
When you make your initial attack run on your opponent is it better to go into a 90 degree zoom climb or keep it shallower.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2014, 04:09:31 PM »
When you make your initial attack run on your opponent is it better to go into a 90 degree zoom climb or keep it shallower.

You point your zoom where it makes a difficult shot for your target, assuming you have no other threats. Keep your g load as low as you can to conserve E.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2014, 05:28:34 PM »
If they don't do what you expect and are unpredictable then they are really new pilots. Good pilots are predictable. They will always pull the move that will best benfit them in the situation they find themselves in. The new pilots don't know what move is the best to pull in order to win the fight so they pull moves that make you think "What is he doing?" Once you know they're new then you should be able to easily beat them (and then give them some tips I hope :) )

Good pilots who know the fundamentals of BFM/ACM, energy management, and have basic tactical situational awareness are unpredictable by nature.  Pilots who are predictable and depend on the same move all the time are going to get surprised at some point in the future.  


That's just how I see all this BnZ stuff. I don't know if it's right or not, I'm not a real pilot. Hopefully I'm not giving wrong advise.  :uhoh

You seem to have some level of success against your opponents.  But, the discussion of lift vector and BFM/ACM fundamentals seems to be missing in your discussion.  For example, pointing your wing at the opponent isn't a valid fundamental term.  There are a number of scenarios that come to mind that would simply confuse someone new to the game and air combat by "pointing their wing" at the opponent.  Its important to know, apply, and teach the fundamentals when introducing it to new players, otherwise, confusion will exist.....followed by frustration.   :salute



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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2014, 05:33:34 PM »
When you make your initial attack run on your opponent is it better to go into a 90 degree zoom climb or keep it shallower.

As FLS said, you zoom to avoid getting shot and reset your advantage.  But the angle depends (as most ACM questions do) largely on what the opponent is doing.  Some examples:

Did the con make and continue a (i.e. 180-degree) flat break turn ?  If so, a shallower turn (high yo-yo) might be advisable to quickly re-position yourself above and behind them, in order to press the attack.

Did the con make a flat S-break (back into you after the initial break turn)?  In this case you may go almost straight vertical to re-position yourself above the con (and quickly drop back in via something like a wingover).

Did the con make a vertical S-break (similar to what Latrobe uses in his film above) to go for a shot on the overshoot?  If so, a sharper vertical zoom is advisable with some off-angle to get out of plane of the shot solution, perhaps using a spiral climb (to potentially rope an aggressive con and/or get back behind their 3/9 line).

As you can see, the "correct" move is almost always dependent upon what the opponent is doing.

The most commonly made mistake I see from most BnZ attackers is climbing in a direction away from the con.  This often creates too much horizontal separation which simply gives the defender time to regain E prior to the next attack.  The key to BnZ is to maintain vertical separation after each pass (zoom climb, maintaining E advantage) WHILE avoiding excessive horizontal separation (staying above them, maintaining positional advantage).  The correct zoom climb angle is whatever allows you to do both of these -- which is relative to how the con is maneuvering.

Hope this helps.

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« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 05:41:56 PM by Kingpin »
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2014, 11:25:08 PM »
I have noticed all the good BNZers stay almost on top of me whenever they come zoom up after a pass.

As of late I've been extending my opponents out to neutralize their altitude advantage, if their in a slower ride ill split S back into them once I have sufficient separation.

Do any of you guys have much success with this method?
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Online Oldman731

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2014, 07:27:29 AM »
Do any of you guys have much success with this method?


Greed kills the majority of b&z-ers.  It takes a lot of self-discipline to stay on top of a target and conserve energy, pass after pass.  As you say, the good ones will do that, but most of the rest will lose their E advantage after a few passes.  So long as a third party doesn't enter the fray, the win typically goes to the pilot who is most patient.

It's one of the reasons why that style of fighting is so crushingly boring.

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Offline wpeters

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Re: Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2014, 11:50:17 AM »
Let me in the defensive for a moment. If someone is diving in on me. My first move should be a 1.) Flat turn into his path or 2.) Up and into him.

If I do 1, I don't think it's aggressive enough to get him to overshoot. If I do 2.) I'm losing a LOT of speed. If that happens and the attacker is good, He'll do a nice high loop and he's back in on me when I'm doing 150-200mph. That's where I go wrong. I'm so aggresive on my initial merge, I lose too much speed. I'm too worried about him getting a shot on me on that first pass.

Am I doing the right thing? Which one makes one more right than the other? How can I conserve more E and get out of his flight path WITHOUT giving up my altitude.

Correct on both accounts. You do both as one maneuver.  When opponent is 1-1.5k away start a slow flat turn into him.  At D600-800 he should be at your 3-9 line or looking down your wing at him... At this moment you need to pull sharply up with your wing pointing at.  Do his speed he will not be able to get a shot on you or if he does it will be a brief deflection from aways away.

As he goes back up level off and slowly climb.  Rinse and repeat til you can get a kill shot on the overshoot.  Normally take 3-4 for me to get on even terms with a opponent. 
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