FSO "Strategic Orders"

[jolly22]

Where has FSO gone. I've flown maybe 3 FSO's since I've came back 2 months ago. I used to fly EVERY FSO event 5-6 years ago.

It used to be a blast. The FSO leaders gave us a target, and we would collaborate with other squads on the same targets and figure out a game plan. Loadout, flight path, egress pattern, rally points. It gave us a sense of accomplishment when we had a successful run. Now a days, the FSO side leaders give us VERY specific orders. That's no fun.

Squad Ops, should be squadrons working together to reach a common goal. It sort of is now, but it's not as fun as it used to be. I'm part of the Claim Jumpers who volunteered as JU88s for this frame. Guess what our orders were. Fly STRAIGHT to target with NO FORMATIONS at 21k. Wow. Not like the allies will be expecting that or anything. So we said screw it. At least give us a flying chance. We went NOE. It was so much more fun dieing like that. Granted, none of us made it to target. NBD, but it was OUR idea to give it a shot. IT failed. Oh well. On to the next.

What I'm asking for, is a change in the strategic rolls from CiCs to the Squad leaders. The CiCs give us the planes, base, target and that's it. The squad leaders work together to figure out a plan, send that plan back to the CiC for approval.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
 
JRjolly

[Ratsy]

Somebody will eventually explain this better than I can.

All who do planning in FSO are volunteers with varying amounts of experience.  CiC operational orders are defined by the stated objectives for the frame. 

Operational orders are suggestions in reality because no plan survives first contact with the enemy.  I don't like highly detailed orders from the CiC or complex timing and integration because of this. I just want to see a task order that includes target and supporting units (and any intel on opposition).

We will often make suggestions to the CiC before Friday so they have an idea where we will deviate from their plan.  That's a courtesy depending on how early the orders are received.  Most CiC's are open to communication and discussion.  Some are not.

The most important aspect of the frame is to accomplish the objective even if it takes 'local discretion' to get it done.

That's what I think, based on doing FSO's since 2008.  But I could be wrong, of course. 

Whether an FSO is 'awesome' or not depends entirely on your local perspective of events.  The events are usually very dynamic and some nights you get caviar and some nights, not so much.  That's not a new characteristic, I'm thinking.

 

[ImADot]

Well thought out and written orders should be simple, easy to understand and achievable.

I don't think in WW2 the commanders said: "You lot go attack that base within an hour...you lot try to escort them...oh, and you guys go meet up with these guys and attack that base over there - you'll have a fighter sweep somewhere around the target sometime around when you decide to get there."

I think there needs to be some coordinating efforts in the CiC orders, and those orders need to be distributed a few days early to allow squads time to more deeply coordinate efforts...and maybe try to fly historic profiles instead of standard MA tactics.

[jolly22]

Yea that's all what I'm getting at..

Receiving very specific orders from a CiC ruins the teamwork aspect of FSO. Tell us what to fly, our objectives, and what base to fly out of. Maybe try to lean us towards one direction, but let the squads come up with the game plane.

[Spikes]

The problem is balancing real life with the game. I'm sure many orders are thrown together very quickly because people have other stuff to do. Meanwhile, others can put plenty of time and effort into planning and more often than not it pays off. The problem lies in the fact that usually when a CiC realizes he can't put a lot of time into orders, it is too late.

You've also got squads who want to coordinate and those who just don't care. Any orders I've written give suggestions as to what routes to take, but I generally left it up to the squads to coordinate and figure out what they think is best. After all, they are the ones working together, not me.

[WxMan]

Receiving very specific orders from a CiC ruins the teamwork aspect of FSO. Tell us what to fly, our objectives, and what base to fly out of. Maybe try to lean us towards one direction, but let the squads come up with the game plan.

Wow...I see this as being the problem.

Within the past year or so, what I've mostly seen from CiC's amount to nothing more than plane and target assignments.  While this would fine if the Squadrons would communicate pre-frame, only a few do this on a consistent basis and proves to be the exception rather than the rule.

A CiC offering a reasonably detailed plan offers a coordinated approach. However, during the 20+ times I've CiC'd a frame (several years ago) I always assigned a squadron lead to coordinate and always gave that lead the option to change the plan.  If nobody talked to one another at least there was a viable plan to start with.

What I fear FSO is de-evolving to is a one-life MA.

[jolly22]

Wow...I see this as being the problem.

Within the past year or so, what I've mostly seen from CiC's amount to nothing more than plane and target assignments.  While this would fine if the Squadrons would communicate pre-frame, only a few do this on a consistent basis and proves to be the exception rather than the rule.

A CiC offering a reasonably detailed plan offers a coordinated approach. However, during the 20+ times I've CiC'd a frame (several years ago) I always assigned a squadron lead to coordinate and always gave that lead the option to change the plan.  If nobody talked to one another at least there was a viable plan to start with.

What I fear FSO is de-evolving to is a one-life MA.

Exactly. I'm expecting it's turning into that as well..

It's a stretch, especially with our current numbers, but what if we decided to start disbanding the squadrons who don't take FSO as seriously. FSO is a HUGE event for some squads. And having 2-3 squads on our side who don't really give a crap is running the strategic operations value of the event.

I think we're all in agreence, so far, that something needs to change to allow the PLAYERS the opportunity to come up with a strategic plan.

[Drano]

Meh. It's all about the people and what they want out of the frame. Me? I like the strategy too. I was a squad CO for years and was glad to take the time to come out with something OTHER than a "fly straight from point A to point B" sort of a plan when it was my turn to be side CO. I always hated plans like that. Even so, a lot of times even tho I took a lot of time out of my week and especially my flying to test fly the routes and make sure my plan would time out right, squads would just ignore it and go in however they wanted and what I had planned on being a somewhat co-ordinated attack turned into a cluster. Pretty annoying.

But then there's the other side of it too. If you're on defense you don't want to be doing a lot of boring holes in the sky with nothing to shoot at. So I get that too. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the reasons there's the 1 hour rule. I used to make plans that allowed the minimum ammount of time to RTB from a target by endframe hoping the CAP fighters were out of fuel by the time we got there. Worked like a champ a few times but I gotta admit I see where it wouldn't have been much fun for the defenders.

Some people like the whole strategery thing. Some don't. Some are just in it for the plane matchups. Sometimes squads don't like what they're flying that particular frame and most or all just don't show up. Can't really fix that at T+0. It is what it is. Personally, I'm all about the mission. I could care less if they gave me a tricycle.

[Squire]

All CiCs have a different style of command. FSO is designed to be "open ended" re things like CiC command and control. That being said you can usually have some latitude when it comes to commanding your squad in battle. Have some patience with it, give some input and see where you can add your own touch to a sides plans.

...and HAVE FUN. Thats FSO Rule #1 !

[branch37]

When I do orders, I usually only assign planes and targets.  Sometimes I will include a map with "recommended" flight paths, but everything is left up to the squadrons. 

[ELD66]

NOE usually fail these days. Most commanders guard against them by setting a mid alt cap to look for the buffs on the deck.

 Best chance is to use a sweep and try to time it so the sweep hits just at the right time while the bombers follow on there tails, Too early for the sweep and the defenders will climb back up, too late and the defenders will avoid the sweep and go straight for the bombers. It is a fine line between success and failure, in any venture in FSO because of the vast amount of talent that has grown over the years.

 

[Gman]

...and HAVE FUN. Thats FSO Rule #1 !

Fair enough.

After a 2 year span of not flying FSO, last night I gave it another whirl.  Didn't see a single red guy in an hour and a half.  It was still fun joking around on vox though at least with guys I hadn't flown with in ages.  Just not as much "fun" as it's supposed to be.  At least my accuracy rating in score wasn't hurt, landing with full magazines, haha.

I would say, based on the other thread, that if the problems with lack of action was a numbers/lack of guys showing up issue, that in the future, if whomever is in "command" (snicker) identifies this problem, to put out a call for a squad on the side with more to rapidly switch sides, and be given snap orders (how tough could that be, considering from what I've read here today that orders are pretty much - here is your aircraft type, and this is your target or defense location, and have a nice day).  I would gladly have switched over, and I'm sure the rest of the squad would have as well, to P38s, Typhoons, whatever.  Heh, it would even be a lot of fun, sort of like a scramble mission, where you don't get time, you just have to go fight.

[captain1ma]

when im cic I try to give map, targets and planes and take off bases, and escorts if you're in bombers..... how you get there, via what path, high or low or whatever, that's up to you and teamwork.

the other problem is, how do you know you're gonna be short 30 guys when the frame starts??? riddle me this! theres no way to predict something like that.

[Gman]

the other problem is, how do you know you're gonna be short 30 guys when the frame starts??? riddle me this! theres no way to predict something like that.

Well, that was exactly my point - there may be no way to "predict" it, but it certainly should and could be noticed at the beginning of the frame during the warning time to take offs given by the CiC.  At the start of the frame, if such a discrepancy is noted, swift simple action of putting out a call in the CiC Blue letters that "This event will be extremely boring due to xyz not showing up, for several squads unless one/two/whatever of you is wiling to switch sides and accept a mission with snap/scramble orders given".  Again, I for one would love a chance to do that, for nothing else but for the feeling of just hopping into a historical emergency scramble mission with little info/intel, as well as the obvious increase in chance of finding somebody to fight with.

It would have worked great for this last Friday's FSO, if one squad, say ours or the AKs who were in our area with one other squad, had switched to Allies and attacked - and the same being done in any other area where no enemies were even seen, if that happened.  Hindsight is easy to pick stuff apart, and again, I suppose for "historical" accuracy, many missions would be flown without seeing a single enemy aircraft.  I don't think that's the experience anyone would want for FSO however.  I would just say for future reference, if this same sort of imbalance - which is what those in charge have said caused the lack of action in our sector of several L/W squads - happens again, just put out a request for a squad to jump sides for the benefit of all, so everyone has a chance of mixing it up in some fashion at least.

[captain1ma]

actually all they had to do was to change JG54 from defense to attack on 131 with 26's  and we would've wiped the place out.... theres no stopping us you know!! LOL...  

but again how do you do that at T-1.... theres no way to realize a shortage even 10 minutes before the frame, most of my guys don't show up til T-3.....

I would suggest maybe having a squad that could change at a moments notice, but that's not really fair to the planners and the CIC's.... would it work sure,
but think about it, you got your orders, you practice for 2 days in plane A, and all of a sudden, you get reassigned plane b, target X because not enough
people show up.

its a tough balancing act on everyone's part, and sometime we just have to suck it up...... with a straw!