FSO "Strategic Orders"

[MachNix]

I was flying for Allied so I did not see the Axis orders, but it is a little puzzling to me that a line on a map linking the launch base to the target with a note that the max bomber altitude was 21k was interpreted as route that had to be flown without question.  And even if that was the "strategic plan" it was not followed.  So it sounds to me that the tactical planning is already left to the squad leaders and no further action is required.
 

[Drano]

Actually think about the side switching thing. It's not the MA or even the AvA. I mean if you know the plan of attack and defense for your  side.... And then you switch sides.... I'd think the howls of "spiez!" would be deafening. Saying.

[Devil 505]

Perhaps FSO should have an arena lock before the event starts. Maybe not the T-30 like Scenarios but maybe a T-15 lock. It's frustrating for squad leaders having to scramble to get everything squared away in less than 5 min. For the CiC it's even more crazy. Having a set time before launch that all pilots must be in arena allows the CiC time to check the roster and possibly fill any gaps in attendance by shifting units.

[jolly22]

Perhaps FSO should have an arena lock before the event starts. Maybe not the T-30 like Scenarios but maybe a T-15 lock. It's frustrating for squad leaders having to scramble to get everything squared away in less than 5 min. For the CiC it's even more crazy. Having a set time before launch that all pilots must be in arena allows the CiC time to check the roster and possibly fill any gaps in attendance by shifting units.

Our squad has a requirement, that if you're flying FSO, you need to be there 15 minutes before the start. So I believe it's a good idea.

[nooby52]

...So we said screw it. At least give us a flying chance. We went NOE. It was so much more fun dieing like that. Granted, none of us made it to target. NBD, but it was OUR idea to give it a shot. IT failed. Oh well. On to the next.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
 
JRjolly

Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW.  Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. 

[Nefarious]

Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW.  Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. 

+1

[jolly22]

Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW.  Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. 

Well here's what tends to happen on almost every FSO when we get a single bomber, of almost anything. (at least with a box we can protect ourselves). We come in at 21k. Fair enough. Our escorts do a great job at clearing the skies in our path by making them hit the deck. GREAT. But then what. We're left to fend for ourselves by another wave of high fighters coming in. And this is where we get slaughtered by having no high alt escort groups. Even if there were a high alt escort group with us. Because we only have one JU88 with the tiniest of armament, it'll take the enemy squadron one sweep and 50% of us are dead.


I'm just stating my opinions here guys, I respect FSO and their ideas and all who participate. I just feel like it's shifted from player bases orders to CiC orders.
 
JRjolly

[Stampf]

We come in at 21k. Fair enough. Our escorts do a great job at clearing the skies in our path by making them hit the deck. GREAT. But then what. We're left to fend for ourselves by another wave of high fighters coming in. And this is where we get slaughtered by having no high alt escort groups. Even if there were a high alt escort group with us. Because we only have one JU88 with the tiniest of armament, it'll take the enemy squadron one sweep and 50% of us are dead.

That is just poor discipline on the part of the escorts if that indeed is the case.  Yes! push them low...But do not pursue.

Any Escort assigned close in High Alt work should always operate with a hard deck assigned - and envelope of air space protection around the bombers that no one is allowed to violate - unless pressed into a defensive posture.   To leave the bombers up top alone is madness.

[Devil 505]

Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW.  Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. 

This is why, when I write orders, I assign flight lead status to the main attacking squad. The intent behind doing so is this: The main attacking squad knows their best and preferred method of attacking. All other squads are to help make their job easier. If that squad wants to go NOE, that's their decision, and they'll have an idea on how best to use the assigned fighter cover to their advantage - probably not by sweeping directly ahead of them.

I also use this strategy for Squads defending an objective. Flight lead status is given to the squad given the best bomber killing fighter. That squad then uses the other assets to ensure the best chances for their own success.
  

[Devil 505]

That is just poor discipline on the part of the escorts if that indeed is the case.  Yes! push them low...But do not pursue.

Any Escort assigned close in High Alt work should always operate with a hard deck assigned - and envelope of air space protection around the bombers that no one is allowed to violate - unless pressed into a defensive posture.   To leave the bombers up top alone is madness.

Indeed. This is Escorting 101.

[Drano]

It's all about having an understanding of the different missions and how they interact with each other. A lot of people here either don't or don't want to and that is sort of a requirement for this sort of play. It's not the MA. This idea of close escort-- that it seems everyone embraces here--is just nuts. It never works. And with good reason. The worst place to be--well, other than trailing the bombers--is right above. Reason is that WHEN the group encounters NME that are tasked with knocking down the bombers, they're gonna largely ignore the escorts and focus on killing as many bombers as possible. Might only take one pass but a lot of em are gonna go down. Seen it a thousand times. The escorts are only in a position to watch that first pass+ pretty much. Close escort= very bad idea. It didn't work in real life so why would anyone think it would here? The escorts NEED to range out ahead of a bomber group and make a hole for them. The escorts need to be mindful of that. THAT is their mission--NOT racking up kills! Get your bombers in and out of the target and there's time for that. Take the defenders below the bombers' level in order to remove threat---never chase them to the deck. See that all the time. Bad discipline. THAT is what gets your bombers killed by another group of defenders. Just take them low ENOUGH. Don't take YOURSELF out of the play in pursuit of a kill. Detached escort is the way to do it--but that takes some effort. Not much--but some. And it ain't hard.

Escorting bombers REQUIRES a LOT of coordination between the bomber lead and fighter lead(s) in order to be successful. It can work. Flying bombers need not be a suicide mission. Bomber leads MUST MUST MUST have someone in their group giving frequent posreps so the fighters know where they are. Every twenty minutes doesn't get it. Bombers have to keep the group tight. Ever see film of bomber missons? They're pretty close together aren't they? There's a reason for that! Throttle the hell back and stay together! Bomber leaders get their whole group strung out over half a sector? See it all the time. They get killed. And then whine about it. They didn't respond on TAC and were all over the place so they couldn't even cover each other let alone get any help from the escorts. Their own fault. It's a team concept. Communicate--act as a team---and survive to complete the mission. Don't do that and you make life easy for the defender.

The whole NOE thing is a joke in FSO. It should be outlawed for bomber aircraft. Especially if people are gonna betch about dying while NOE. The only thing a NOE raid should be used for is as **part of a strategy** to drag some of the CAP fighters low so that those high alt level bombers can get a clearer path to the target. Give the escorts an easier time.

Timing is another thing. Don't know how many times I've tried to escort bombers that went charging in at a lower alt at full throttle and ended up in the target area well ahead of their escorts. Again--this ain't hard. Throttle the hell back and make sure that you are in the correct position to make the attack. If you go in first--YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. It's that simple.

Escorts. If you're escorting a group of bombers. THAT IS YOUR MISSION. Period. If you cross paths with an NME group that's possibly an attack--DO NOT ENGAGE IT. Like EVER! Send ONE OR TWO guys over to shadow that group and give FREQUENT POSREPS so that the guys that are tasked with defending the area they're heading to just might have something to shoot at. This happened this past frame where a group of escorts went after a group of attackers, wiped them out but left their bombers without an arm of escort and left their buds with a lot of empty sky.

I'm sorry if this comes across kinda harsh. But I've been flying events for years and years gong back into air warrior. I've been in every position from plane pilot on up to sice CiC in a scenario. So I know from the missions and the strategy. Events are a different animal people. Learn the missions, learn the strategy of them and I guarantee you'll have a better time. Treat it like an AvA MA and you'll have just that. And if that's the case don't whine when you get there.

[-ammo-]

Lot of good thoughts here.

My squad has had FSO discussions, or maybe it was complaints, doesn't matter what you call it.  The consensus in our group is the FSO campaign are flawed at the design level.  There are really no surprises when surprise could add a pucker factor.

What I mean is, each side is given a set of targets to attack or defend and ALL targets must be attacked.  What if, and it's just a what if, the attacker did not have to hit every target but does have to meet a points objective?  And, to ensure the defenders saw action, the arena setting were adjusted so radar or DAR showed their presence at a specified range.  What I mean by that is it wouldn't have to be MA range.

Then maybe a CiC and his squad leads could have options to be creative in their planning.

I'm sure there are many holes in my thoughts.  Be assured though, I simply want FSO to be everything it can be which in turn means great fun for the participants, and hopefully more participants.

All my years in the military, I learned a lot.  One thing that stands out in relation to this is always try to improve your foxfole for the ones that follow behind you. 

[jolly22]

I agree with everything. But it's hard to find an escort group with that kind of discipline.

EVEN with the escorts, no matter where they are, they see bombers, they engage. They forget about the fighters. One pass, 50% of us are down.. Then we're hurting. Especially with no drones.

We'll try something else this frame. If we don't get a ride change.

Thank you for feedback.
 
JRjolly

[Bino]

Please note: Both the B-26 and JU-88 have NO minimum required number in this setup. Use of those two aircraft by the C-in-C is optional.

[Stampf]

EVEN with the escorts, no matter where they are, they see bombers, they engage.

Of course.  And like Drano said, - No one can stop one pass on the bombers.  It is impossible for any close escort to prevent one pass.  Can't be done in close proximity to the bombers.