Air to Air Gunnery

[FBCyPi]

It seems like my nose is all over the plave when I shoot the guns n about any aircraft.  I've played with the advanced settings.  I need help

[Zoney]

First, relax, don't try so hard.  Don't move around much when you fire.  Lead your target a bit and let them fly through your bullet stream, make a small adjustment fire again.  Don't fire your guns and manuver at the same time until you can develop a light touch on the stick.

Go into the training arena and ask someone to be a target for you to practice your gunnery.  In the TA you can see the "hit sprites" but no damage is taken so you can fire away and really fine tune your gunnery.

Stick settings are also important.  You want to map your stick to help you keep steady and not overcompensate.  My settings allow less movement initially and then they allow harder movements as you pull the stick farther.

Lastly, thanks for playing Aces High, it's a great game.  Be patient with yourself.

[fuzeman]

It seems like my nose is all over the plave when I shoot the guns n about any aircraft.  I've played with the advanced settings.  I need help

What type of controller are you using to play the game with?, if I may ask.

[Hap]

Shooting down the offline drones might be a good way to improve steadying your aim.

[DubiousKB]

+1 Zoney

It took me awhile to tweek my joystick settings (input scaling more on the low end to reduce jittery movements due to a loose stick, and increasing the dead-band on my rudder axis to ensure I wasn't inadvertently inputting rudder commands on sloppy stick control inputs)

It will take some trial and error to fine tune this, but my gunnery skillz have improved because of it.

1 because I was practicing!!!
2. because I was more aware of my erroneous joystick inputs once viewing the live vs modified inputs
3. Short controlled bursts, THEN make adjustments.. Don't try to put the whole stream into a target, make the target enter you burst stream via proper lead technique.

[morfiend]

It seems like my nose is all over the plave when I shoot the guns n about any aircraft.  I've played with the advanced settings.  I need help

  If you are having nose bounce,you will need to look at pitch and yaw axises.

   If you are using a twist stick then it's likely the yaw that is causing the nose to move around.Simply pulling the trigger can cause unwanted rudder input,then you will try to correct and it's a loosing game.

   There are a couple things you can do to help,you can increase deadpan for the yaw and or pitch axis. You can add dampening to these same axises although the dampening will effect the whole axis so be careful not to add too much dampening.

  Or you can enable scaling and try to use the sliders to dial out the initial inputs so when you pull the trigger you dont cause movement on the axis that is causing the nose bounce.  If you have rudder pedals then you likely only need look at the pitch axis!


   If you are still having issues,come see me after the holidays in the TA,I'm there most week nights between 9pm and 11pm est. I can fly behind you and watch what's happening and further advise you on some adjustment that may be needed.



   

[Kingpin]

There is some very good advice here already, especially WRT to stick scaling and the smooth lead anticipation.  Once you have those things dialed in the next key is practice.  Then more practice.

I would get with a trainer, like Morfiend, who can walk you through some of the scaling steps and practice shooting.  Likewise, if you see me online (in game: RynoRush), please feel free to ask for assistance.  You can even PM me in the MA, as I will often set aside time to go in the TA and work with people on gunnery issues.

Part of the introduction to gunnery course I put together deals with identifying scaling issues specifically, in part through an "aim small, miss small" exercise.  It is meant to see how precisely you can hold a given sight picture, which often exposes scaling issues.

A couple tips with regard to "nose bounce" and "wobble":

In addition to stick scaling, elevator trim can have an effect on your nose bounce -- particularly if you have flaps in.  Getting your plane trimmed well can help with this some so you can be smoother on the controls.  Combat trim does not account for flaps usage, so if you feel like you are "fighting the stick" some, like you have to shove forward stick to keep the nose level, it's your trim fighting you.  If you are experiencing this with flaps in, turn your combat trim off especially while shooting.  Morfiend is also quite good at helping to dial in trim settings for various aircraft, so you may want to consult with him for a better explanation of how to set that up.

Also as Morf said, rudder can also be an issue.  Even if you don't have unwanted rudder input (a small deadband setting usually helps with that), a good scaling of your rudder is also important, because you don't want to "over-kick" and have to adjust rudder back and forth while shooting.  If you do, you may notice some "wobble" in the yaw plane, even after centering the rudder.  The best technique I have found for using the rudder to aim is to try to use smooth input and hold the rudder input while shooting.  If you kick rudder to move the nose and then release it before you shoot, you may see the wobble I am referring to.  While this is less impactive on dead-six shooting than vertical nose bounce can be, it does affect your bullet concentration, especially at ranges outside of your set convergence.

Hope this helps and that you are able to follow up with someone in the TA.

<S>
Ryno

[Skyyr]

Before taking any player's advice, go look up their accuracy statistics for the last few tours. Everyone has an opinion on how to shoot, but there are very, very few actually-good shots in the game. Look for players maintaining an 9-10% or better hit percentage across several hundred kills (not just someone who ups for three missions and kills a few bombers). You'll want to make sure you're learning from those who are experts at combat shooting, not those who are repeating second-hand information or those who shoot primarily in closed, controlled environments.

Also, unless you have a worn out or otherwise-faulty joystick, do not use scaling, dampening, etc. Just my .02.

Here's my advice from a previous thread.

If you want to get good at shooting, and want to do so quickly, then do this:

• Turn your scaling off on all axes.
• Turn your dampening to zero.
• Turn your deadzone down to zero (unless you have a loose joystick or a joystick that won't truly return to zero).

These simply serve as crutches 99% of the time and teach bad gunnery habits; with the exception of the deadzone, they all inherently promote sloppy control of the joystick. There are some players who have legitimate uses for them, but those cases are rare and far between.

The aim small, miss small idea of trying to hit specific areas of an aircraft does not work either. It works fine in non-combat and training situations, but the second you introduce stress, you'll find it becomes unreliable. In a higher-stress situation (such as the adrenaline rush from wanting to win a dogfight), fine motor control goes out the window. All that is left is coarse motor control. Want to see this in action? Run for 30 seconds and then hold a pen, as if you were trying to write with it, and attempt to keep it perfectly still for 10 seconds - you can't. This is loss of fine motor control and it happens when you undergo stress, regardless of whether it's for positive or negative reasons.

Take that same pen, grip it in your fist (like a hammer), and try to hold it still - you'll find this is much easier. This is coarse (or gross) motor control. You will fall back to your default level of coarse motor control in a stressful situation.

Not surprisingly, this is also what is taught in most real-life advanced weapon-manipulation training courses.

What you want to do is make your stick ultra-sensitive with a direct input ratio (i.e. no scaling). You'll find that it will feel very jumpy and almost unusable at first, but you'll also discover that, after a bit of practice, you can quickly adjust to rough guesstimates and be able to hold them rock-steady. Because of the direct scaling, there's no "learning" curve - it's intuitive. Half-stick, half-deflection; full-stick, full-deflection; and so on. Once you have this down, simply pull lead, then walk your shot in. Leave tracers on for this reason. This is the same method that was taught for using the F-16's cannon back in the 90's.

Some players will advise to unload before shooting - do not do this; it teaches bad habits that, while making it easier to get some shots, puts you in a less advantageous position should you miss your shot and makes it less repeatable. If you're familiar with real-world long range marksmanship, you'll recall that you "load" your bipod for the same reasons. Keeping consistent stick pressure is the gaming equivalent of loading a bipod.

Also, leave your tracers on. Turning them off is for those who have mastered gunnery (and no one that I've seen yet has). With tracers off, the best thing that can happen is you can hit your opponent; however, if you miss, you have no idea how much you're missing by. Ergo, your misses with tracers off become worse and it tends to make you a worse shot, especially at high deflection angles or at long distance. Conversely, with tracers on, good shots will remain good shots; however, when you miss, you can see immediately how much you're missing by and adjust. There's no downside to using tracers. Giving away your position or intention is also BS, as a good opponent will be aware of where you are and what tactics might be available for you to use. Simply leave them on.

TL;DR - Summarized: Take out all of the post-processing of your joystick input - it simply serves to "confuse" your natural reflexes and makes it harder to learn what is somewhat intuitive. Focus on quickly pulling the "rough" amount of lead needed over the center mass of the aircraft, fire, and then walk your shot in. You'll find it immensely easier to learn to shoot. And leave your tracers on.

[morfiend]

Before taking any player's advice, go look up their accuracy statistics for the last few tours. Everyone has an opinion on how to shoot, but there are very, very few actually-good shots in the game. Look for players maintaining an 9-10% or better hit percentage across several hundred kills (not just someone who ups for three missions and kills a few bombers). You'll want to make sure you're learning from those who are experts at combat shooting, not those who are repeating second-hand information or those who shoot primarily in closed, controlled environments.

Also, unless you have a worn out or otherwise-faulty joystick, do not use scaling, dampening, etc. Just my .02.

Here's my advice from a previous thread.

  Skyrr,


      Did you even read the OP?  He's looking for help in eliminating his "nose bounce"  my term not his,he calls it nose wandering but it amounts to the same issue. He didnt ask how to shoot or how to improve,he is simply asking if it's possible to address the nose wandering while shooting.

  While your advice may help someone with top notch equipment,not everyone has that luxury and often must make do with what they have.

  You can call it a crutch,or gamey all you like,fact is some input devices may need the "crutch" regardless of what you may think!




   




   

[glzsqd]

My gunnery has not been what it had been in the past, I think its because of my new setup

















Anyone have any experience with this?

[Someguy63]

My gunnery has not been what it had been in the past, I think its because of my new setup



 








(Image removed from quote.)




Anyone have any experience with this?

Whoa.

[Skyyr]

 Skyrr,
      Did you even read the OP?  He's looking for help in eliminating his "nose bounce"  my term not his,he calls it nose wandering but it amounts to the same issue. He didnt ask how to shoot or how to improve,he is simply asking if it's possible to address the nose wandering while shooting.

  While your advice may help someone with top notch equipment,not everyone has that luxury and often must make do with what they have.

  You can call it a crutch,or gamey all you like,fact is some input devices may need the "crutch" regardless of what you may think!




  




    

I did read the post. In my experience, nose bounce can be attributed to one of two things:

1. A loose stick that won't return to origin
2. Poor control of the joystick

Unless the OP has a worn out or otherwise wandering joystick (as I've had happen to some of my joysticks), then nose bounce is due to control technique (and it almost always is).

Assuming that it's not a faulty or worn out stick, the correct action is to address the method of control input. Messing with dampening, input curves, etc. is simply putting a bandaid on the underlying issue. Further, by doing so, it allows a player to continue bad habits while having the game settings correct them. This creates a false sense of security in one's control. The suggestions in my post address this.

I quoted the post simply as it was easier than typing up a new reply, as it covered the issue in question (as well as addressing a few other aspects).

Also, I meant no offense to anyone who uses input post-processing (what the AH joystick curves and settings are). The fact is, however, that those who use those settings will never be able to reach the same level of control and control speed as those who use raw input. Additionally, raw input is typically processed at a 1:1 movement ratio, making flying and shooting much more intuitive once the pilot adjusts to it.

Someone using input curves in AH would have to practice over and over and over to gain the correct muscle memory to make, for example, a shot requiring them to apply 62% of their available rudder authority, simply because 62% isn't a a value you can quickly and efficiently calculate on the fly. 62% movement with scaled curves might correspond to 70% movement, 49% movement, 80%, etc. - it could be any value based on the curves. With direct input (no curves), you know immediately that a 62% rudder movement requires moving your rudder input 62%, or roughly 6/10's of its full range of motion. It allows the player to input controls quicker and more accurately the first time, especially newer players, once they adjust to the heightened sensitivity.

Again, this assumes the OP's joystick isn't the issue. If it is, then increasing the deadzone is usually the best way to solve the problem.

[Skuzzy]

Using "dead zone", exclusively, to solve errant stick inputs is not a good idea.  When you have errant inputs, such as those from a noisy or loose stick, use both damping and dead zone.  Why? Dead zone is brutal.  Damping is soft.

Damping, at its smallest amount will solve low errant inputs without dead zone. Damping just decelerates the input.  The amount, in its least amount will not have a noticeable impact on reaction between input and motion. 

Dead zone ignores a percentage of input around the last position of the stick.  Small inputs are completely lost.  Too much dead zone can cause you to overreact to compensate for the lack of motion.

Neither feature stops the stick from reaching full deflection.  It just alters how it gets there.

The best way to see if you are having the correct impact is to pay attention to the graphs in the "Advanced" panel.  The one on the left is the raw input.  The one on the right is the corrected input.  Adjust the sliders using small increments, as a little of either goes a long way.

While advice on this can be helpful, one needs to approach these features as something you need to get right for yourself.  Every pilot is different.  Every stick is different.  Do what works best for you.

[Puma44]

It seems like my nose is all over the plave when I shoot the guns n about any aircraft.  I've played with the advanced settings.  I need help

In addition to the suggestions provided, have you tried trimming slightly nose down? 

[morfiend]

While advice on this can be helpful, one needs to approach these features as something you need to get right for yourself.  Every pilot is different.  Every stick is different.  Do what works best for you.

  This to me is the most important part, "Do what works best for you"!

   It's the reason I offered to meet up with the OP,I know that every player is different and no 2 sticks are exactly the same.This is particularly true with twist types,simply pulling the trigger can cause unwanted rudder inputs.

  Over the years I have seen this more often than I can count,sometimes it's just hamfisting on the players part and they need to learn to relax and fly smooth. However often it's the input device and the game is able to correct most issues unless the JS is totally shot.

 BTW I use no dampening or deadpan on any axis,I have a slight scaling on my rudder pedals,because I have 2 left feet!  I usually suggest that the player tries to use as little amount of scaling as possible and what will work best for them!


   I may not be a CFI but I stayed at a holiday inn last night!