Jug Instructions

[Muzzy]

Update: I tend to lose most of the 1v1 fights in a jug unless I have an advantage. Co alt co-e I'm usually dead. It's very difficult to work the situation to my advantage especially against good sticks.

"A good jug pilot would have beaten me in 3 turns." -Manurin

Ouch.

I'm constantly running into trouble at the merge. There doesn't seem to be a way to force an advantage and I can never get my nose back around after the first pass. If I go vertical, I slow down too much. If I try a high yo-yo I usually give up a deflection shot. If I extend, I'm just prolonging the inevitable. Even if I manage one or two passes I can't get a gun solution unless I HO. Not really sure how to deal with this other than to avoid 1v1's altogether.

[FLS]

Muzzy the missing information is which aircraft you're fighting. If you turn against an aircraft with a turn advantage you're likely to have difficulties.

[Latrobe]

What FLS said. I seem to keep bumping into you and your 47 quite a bit recently. I remember one night I kept coming back to fight you and HlyWd in your Jugs. I was in a 109G2 at the time. The 109G2 can be quite a challenge for a D40 (what you were flying I think). While the D40 can get inside a G2 for a little while with it's higher speed flaps, the G2 can easily match or out turn it once it gets slow enough to deploy its flaps. The G2 also has the huge advantage of climb rate and ability to build E quickly, so once the fight gets slow and flaps are introduced then the G2 will have a fairly easy time just taking the fight vertcial where a D40 (or any Jug) really struggles. I don't remember exactly how the fights played out (curse my horrid memory) but if you try to follow a plane that can out climb you into a climb without some excessive speed behind you then things will not end well for you. If you try to turn with a plane that can out turn you then same thing, it won't end well.

Knowing what the correct thing to do against certain planes in order to gain an advantage can take quite a while to learn as there are a lot of different planes you're going to meet in the skies and each one you are going to meet under slightly different circumstances. One fight you might merge with a Spit 16 Co-alt and Co-E. You might learn that doing "this" will gain you an advantage and win the fight. Then next fight you come across another Spit 16, but this time he has a slight alt-advantage. Now doing "this", which won you the fight last time, doesn't work and you get killed. Instead, doing "that" would have achieved victory.

I, or anyone else, can sit here all day and give you all the information in the world on how to win the fight, but the single best teacher in the world is experience; going out and trying it first hand yourself. All the info in this thread is excellent and will give you that much needed boost to accelerate your learning but there is a big difference between reading about something and then doing it first hand. Just stick to it, I can already see you becoming better with the Jug each time I run into you. 

[Randy1]

I feel Your pain Muzzy.
Study your decision points.  That is the point in the merge where you make a decision on what to do next.  The decision is simple.  Can I gain an advantage or not?  Which P47 you take, defines the number of, and types of options you have.  A plane like a Ki84 gives you just about every option in the book where a D40's weight limits the options. 

Now people like LilMark, can squeeze every ounce of performance out a P-47. I have not mastered the P-47 so I have to be careful in the first decision which is to merge or not.  If I merge the next decision is did I win the merge or not.  If not blow on through the merge.  If you do win the merge then setup for the next merge or the kill.

As Latrobe posted, it takes practice to develop an eye to read the situation. 

[The Fugitive]

Maybe posting a film or two of your fights will give people some ideas on where your going wrong. In a jug it could be just the timing or the start f your turn is off by a tiny bit and it is where your throwing away the fight. Once some of these jug guys see your fight they might be able to post a film doing what they do in the same situation and come out on top.

Most of your posts are vague situations of the fights. Whats needed is a more precise account and a film will do that. 

[-ammo-]

Its actually LilMak, and I agree with Randy1

[-ammo-]

Speed, eight 50 cals at convergence, and the Lead turn is your friend in the jug.  90%  of the enemy I face point their nose directly at me and look for the shot at merge. At about 800 yards, depending on closing speed, I'll pull lead to get a step ahead of them.  If I can take advantage and get a crippling or kill shot, the fight is over that quick. 

Speaking of, unlikely as it would seem with the ammo package the jug has,  good gunnery IMO is the best skill to have in the MA.  The longer you loiter trying to get the shot, the more vulnerable you become.  This is true for all AC, but exasperated in an aircraft like the jug that doesn't build energy quickly

[FLS]

The best way to kill a skilled co-E bandit who has a turn advantage is with a wingman. A co-E merge is not an even fight unless the aircraft performance is similar.

Fights generally end because the loser made a mistake, not because the winner did anything special to win.

[bozon]

Muzzy, Latrobe already made the point that there is no recipe for success - which is a great thing by the way! This is why combat is still fun for me in AH after so many years.
What we can give you are just general advice on how to approach the fight and what to pay attention to, but the rest is you and your experience.

In 1 on 1 with the jug my advice to you is to be active rather than proactive. By this I mean do not wait to see the other player move and react to him - you have to be the one with the initiative. Try to lead with your move and if that does not work, break away early and disengage. Some planes were just not made for duels. The 190d is a great fighter in the MA and scenarios but it kinda sucks in duels - the P47 is somewhat similar.

To take the initiative, try to guess what the other player will do. Most players will repeat the same move over and over again - it is a good move that they are familiar with so if you react to it you play into their hands. Now do something before they get to execute their thing. For example, if they like to lead with a hard vertical pull, try to dive and pull into them before they start. Or roll 90 deg and pull some angle off - they will think that you are executing a poorly timed lead turn and will be tempted to turn after you instead of their original plane (use the jugs roll rate to quickly turn into them for a flat merge). Putting yourself in a slight disadvantage can work in your favor if it makes the other player change his plan and throw him off his comfort zone.
You want to beat the player, not his plane.

One final advice - if you decide that the fight is not going in your favor, disengage, and the other player calls you a runner, do the following: move your head position as high as possible, bend to look forward-down, and lower your pants. If he wants you to turn and fight again he should break off and give you room to do so.
 

[Randy1]

You know one of the hardest things for me to learn was how to get the proper separation before the merge, and then take advantage of that separation.  I have a pretty good grasp now and that is the secret to the merge.  All the diagrams make it look simple but it is not. 

Reading the OP's original post again.  I think not getting good separation was his first mistake.  After that, he was pushing his P-47 to try to win a fight he already lost.

Ammo my bad and applogies to LilMak for the SP.

[Muzzy]

Last night it was Yak 3's and A8's. The A8 fight quickly devolved into a low speed turn on the deck. Manurin was able to catch me in four turns.

I would say I have a solid understanding  of every plane in the game, and I can usually formulate a strategy against all of them in my other rides. The one area where I lack expertise is turn radius and turn rate, especially  at various speeds. Data on that is hard to find and there's no easy way to discover it yourself.

My experience told me there was a good chance the A8 would not be able to hold a turn at low speed against a jug, but obviously I was wrong, as my controls mushed out on me. Manurin said ir was a question of technique and perhaps he was right.

That said, I probably shouldn't have let the fight progress that far. I think the larger problem is that I am not used to fighting in a plane that can't go vertical or turn sharply in a duel. My usual rides are Yaks and FM2's and I generally know what to do with them in a duel, but my regular  moves obviously don't work in a jug.

I will post some films in the near future.

[FLS]

The one area where I lack expertise is turn radius and turn rate, especially  at various speeds. Data on that is hard to find and there's no easy way to discover it yourself.

I have often posted two easy ways to compare low speed turn ability. Compare available g at 200 mph, in other words how much g load can you pull while maintaining 200 mph in a level turn.

You can also compare how slow you can fly and maintain 3g. Either way will show you comparative performance.

This works at any altitude and any weight so you can test your usual loadout at your usual altitude. Since you don't know what the bandit's weight will be, test the aircraft you'll be fighting against at 50% fuel for an average value.

[Muzzy]

I'm not following. I go up and execute a turn trying to maintain 200 mph. How do I use that to find out what my rate and radius will be at other speeds and altitudes?

[FLS]

I'm not following. I go up and execute a turn trying to maintain 200 mph. How do I use that to find out what my rate and radius will be at other speeds and altitudes?

It doesn't tell you rate and radius. It let's you compare relative turn performance between aircraft. You have to look at both your accelerometer to see the g load and the speedometer to see your speed. Film can help. The aircraft that can hold a higher g load at 200 mph has the better turn.

You can also compare by testing how slow you can fly and still hold 3g. At 3g the slower speed indicates the better turn.
Comparing speed at 3g is a good way to test different flap settings.

When you have the P-47 data you can test and compare the aircraft you fight against.

During a fight you won't be looking at speed and g, you'll be watching the bandit and listening to your stall horn. You might glance at speed occasionally to be sure you aren't too slow.

[Muzzy]

Got it. Thanks!