Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?

[glzsqd]

It has a better flap structure that is for sure, but better stalling characteristics is a little overstated. The spit will easily out barrel roll the 109s, gains speed almost or just as quickly, and can hold its E very well during turns, plus reaction time and nose heaviness are much lighter on the spit which help it very much when going verticle. Gotta watch out for that upside down flat stall in the spit. The problem is that most people don't know how to use the flaps correctly on the spits. If you fight krupnski, or Joachim in a spit vs  a 109, you won't beat them. Nor if ink were in a Ki84 or if I was In a F4U. The 109s simply cannot beat these planes in a rolling scissors.

I believe the Spits biggest advantage over the 109 is their gunpackage, however the K4 will out run the Spit16 at nearly ever Altitude.



I like Flat scissors bettee

[morfiend]

The spit will easily out barrel roll the 109s,

  This is not correct,the only spit that can out roll a 109,any 109 is the 16 all the rest have difficulties trying to roll at low speeds and high throttle settings.


  I would add that while the spits can generally out turn a 109 there is a small speed window where the 109's can gain angles on a spit.

  My favorite way to deal with a spit is to take it into a righthanded turn then start a spiral climb,if the spit still hangs in there I will start a rolling scissor to the right!  Once speeds drop below 200 mph the spit wont have a chance at rolling with a 109.


  YMMV!




   


PS:  I would do the exact opposite with a spit 14.

[DmonSlyr]

  This is not correct,the only spit that can out roll a 109,any 109 is the 16 all the rest have difficulties trying to roll at low speeds and high throttle settings.


  I would add that while the spits can generally out turn a 109 there is a small speed window where the 109's can gain angles on a spit.

  My favorite way to deal with a spit is to take it into a righthanded turn then start a spiral climb,if the spit still hangs in there I will start a rolling scissor to the right!  Once speeds drop below 200 mph the spit wont have a chance at rolling with a 109.


  YMMV!




   


PS:  I would do the exact opposite with a spit 14.

Well I meant more into the rolling scissors type of barrel roll. 

The only 109 that would stand a chance vs the spits in  a real stall fight is the 109F. Other than that, the spit really dominates all of the 109s in a sharp turning stall fight.

Unless you have a crucial E advantage from the start, I tripple dog dare y'all to try to rope a spit 16 or spit 8 with a G14, you won't out climb it. Even in a K you have to have a great speed advantage to rope the spit16 or 8. If you are in a 1V1 fight and go into the a rolling scissors you will get out scissored. If you try to rope the spit from the rolling scissors ( after a few go arounds) you will not rope it. It is like fighting the yak or P38 against a 109. The 109 barely out maneuvers both these planes even though they can gain a slight E advantage and may be able to try a rope. In any case there may be a small window speed of advantage for the 109 to get around on a spit but that takes years of experience to feel out and if you can't make the shot you are screwed. If the spit gains your 6, especially after a few rolling scissors, the 109K will not be able to get away.

I'm talking about 2 great pilots pushing the envelope for both planes to their max level.

[Rich46yo]

I Love it. The K4 is a great airplane.

[FBKampfer]

DONT LISTEN TO FBKampfer

You don't know what you are talking about!!!

F4u will domintate any 109 besides maybe the 109 F in a turn fight. I mean seriously dude you cannot make training comments about planes when you have only been playing for prob less than a year.

I never said turn with him. There's a difference between being slow, and trying to out turn someone.

It's not like if you drop below 170 you automatically explode because the F4U is just that much better. If you think like that, then I'm sorry, but as good as you are, you're also an idiot.

Its preferable to be fast and high, but that also applies to every other opponent in the game, not just the F4U.

And the reality is that at some point, you're going to bump into a hog when you're low E. You seem to paint it as unwinnable, and I would argue otherwise.

[DmonSlyr]

I never said turn with him. There's a difference between being slow, and trying to out turn someone.

It's not like if you drop below 170 you automatically explode because the F4U is just that much better. If you think like that, then I'm sorry, but as good as you are, you're also an idiot.

Its preferable to be fast and high, but that also applies to every other opponent in the game, not just the F4U.

And the reality is that at some point, you're going to bump into a hog when you're low E. You seem to paint it as unwinnable, and I would argue otherwise.

First of all, I wasn't referring to you with that statement. I was stating that FBkampfer doesn't have enough experience to judge which planes can do what yet. No offense.

Secondly, you are miss understanding my point. Sure it comes to down to how the pilot controls the aircraft. But on equal pilots the F4U is way more versatile than the the 109s in almost all aspects of fighting. The only thing the the K4 is better at is excelling and climbing. If the K4 doesn't start with an E advantage it will lose the fight if you attempt to stall fight after a few go arounds. The slower you get the worse off you are against a F4U in a turn fight. The only thing a K4 can do is extend away from the F4U and attempt to gain more E in order to attempt a spiral climb rope, which takes a lot of experience and understanding to perform. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to fight the F4U as it is a good challenge, just the odds of you winning vs a good F4U pilot are very slim in this situation. 

[morfiend]

Demon,


   Look at roll rates of the spits vs the 109's and other than the 16 none compare!


  As for the rest of your post,I never said anything about roping a plane,you did  but I didnt,I merely stated how I would deal with a spit when in any 109.

  I think the spits are easier to fly than a 109,have better views and dont suffer from a stiff elevator at high speeds but the 109 have their own advantages,looking mean is just 1 of those!



     

[bustr]

And you make sure your spit driver doesn't know when to stop turning to the right and reset the fight.

[PR3D4TOR]

DONT LISTEN TO FBKampfer

You don't know what you are talking about!!!

F4u will domintate any 109 besides maybe the 109 F in a turn fight.

No 109 driver worthy of the title will turn fight a Spit, let alone a Corsair. 109's dominate the vertical E fight.

And predator I'm sorry man but the 109g14 or K will lose in a heartbeat to a spit16 or 8. As soon as they get around on your 6...

You keep discussing as if it would become a turn fight. It wouldn't. Co-E, co-alt the Spit would not get an opportunity to get on the 109's six. The only shots a properly flown 109K will give is the occasional HO opportunity, and if the Spit driver is very good and sets it up, and survives the 109's attack, he might get a parting shot as the 109 flies by.

Even a well flown G-6 can give a Spit8/16 a good run for its money in a knife fight.

[ink]

due to the nature of dogfighting...which IMO

requires a mental process to excel at...in other words the "tool" being used is only so good for success.

there are some natural abilities that play into it...but without knowledge of E and ACM itself your success will be very limited.   

once a certain skill level is reached the tool/plane is not longer of great importance....


you take a fighting "vet" in a crappy plane he will kill the totally new guy in a spit16 even at a disadvantage every time.

[DmonSlyr]

No 109 driver worthy of the title will turn fight a Spit, let alone a Corsair. 109's dominate the vertical E fight.


You keep discussing as if it would become a turn fight. It wouldn't. Co-E, co-alt the Spit would not get an opportunity to get on the 109's six. The only shots a properly flown 109K will give is the occasional HO opportunity, and if the Spit driver is very good and sets it up, and survives the 109's attack, he might get a parting shot as the 109 flies by.

Even a well flown G-6 can give a Spit8/16 a good run for its money in a knife fight.

You know I had a perfect 109K sortie I was trying the upload to films and screenshots but it is too big for the server. Dangit. Wish I knew how to post to YouTube.

I disagree a lot with what you are saying.  You act like the 109 should always have the E advantage and always have the upper hand. The 109K has a great vertical when it has the advantage and against other planes on equal terms, true. This is not always the case though.  The vertical is very different when you don't first start off with the upper hand. Any spit besides the 14 could turn inside on the 109 on a the merge and if the 109 doesn't keep the E or equals the merge, it will lose on the merge generally every time especially vs a spit16, the spit 8 and 9 also react much more quickly than the 109k. The spit16 even has a better vertical. Yes the 109s will give spits a very hard time, but equal pilots who can fly both planes to top tier the spit will always gain the angle and have a easier time doing it. It takes a lot more skill from a 109 pilot to beat a spit than vice versa. The 109 in the defensive vertical is only good if you can make the shot on a overshoot, this is a very advanced maneuver taken from the barrel roll defense. If you are fighting vs an opponent who is great at BnZ you will lose. It only excels in the vert if you can reverse E the opponent and attempt a rope which again is a very advanced move, and very difficult to perform on a spit no other. Fighting in the defense is where the K4 is great at, but vs a good opponent in a better turning plane who starts the engagement at a higher alt will always beat a 109 given equal pilots.

[FBKampfer]

First of all, I wasn't referring to you with that statement. I was stating that FBkampfer doesn't have enough experience to judge which planes can do what yet. No offense.

Secondly, you are miss understanding my point. Sure it comes to down to how the pilot controls the aircraft. But on equal pilots the F4U is way more versatile than the the 109s in almost all aspects of fighting. The only thing the the K4 is better at is excelling and climbing. If the K4 doesn't start with an E advantage it will lose the fight if you attempt to stall fight after a few go arounds. The slower you get the worse off you are against a F4U in a turn fight. The only thing a K4 can do is extend away from the F4U and attempt to gain more E in order to attempt a spiral climb rope, which takes a lot of experience and understanding to perform. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to fight the F4U as it is a good challenge, just the odds of you winning vs a good F4U pilot are very slim in this situation.

I'm not that new, about 5 years total.

Second, as I said, it's obviously preferable to have the advantage. This is always true.

But you won't always have it, and it pays to know how to fight from an equal start, or even a disadvantage. The F4U has trouble with nose-high work when slow, so you've got to take the fight into the vertical, as I said. Chaining immelmans together works as a good interim if you can't pull off the spiral climb. It keeps the F4U working against gravity, and let's you keep out of his guns for the most part.

[bustr]

That spit8 pilot was afraid to give up his E on the deck to take advantage of the 109 hanging there and bet the farm on his ability to shoot then get away. He looked to have reached a competent MA fighting skill level with the spit8 which tends to be reactionary to the con, then quickly bailing to reset or run away. The spit8's speed and E retention is it's worst enemy in slow 1v1. That is the hard lesson that spit8 pilots have to accept. It's not so bad in a 9 or 16.

So he was not getting to flaps speed very often to change the nature of his fight. He was probably on Mil and popping in and out of WEP much of the fight trying to change from flying like a spit, to suddenly trying to fly like a 109, then bailing to a reset. In a spit8 you cannot suddenly slow down to take a vertical shot at a 109, who has been flying near flaps speed to float vertical teasing you with the illusion of an easy shot.

You can fly with less throttle and stay closer, even dragging a lot of opposite rudder to help stay slow. The spit8 driver flew like he had lost a lot to 109's and knew what was coming next but, not quite there with the experience to counter it. And was allowing his fear of loosing one more time to a 109 dictate staying too fast trying to get around the circle and win with the spit's turn rate. The constant resetting after each failed rear pass while the 109 hung above him. And the obvious blowing out in front trying to scissors. He should have brought a 9 then. The spit8 can be unforgiving at slow speed in turns and trying to go vertical at slow speeds. Often making players opt for the more forgiving 16.

Also that spit8 driver was a horrible deflection shooter.

[DmonSlyr]

I'm not that new, about 5 years total.

Second, as I said, it's obviously preferable to have the advantage. This is always true.

But you won't always have it, and it pays to know how to fight from an equal start, or even a disadvantage. The F4U has trouble with nose-high work when slow, so you've got to take the fight into the vertical, as I said. Chaining immelmans together works as a good interim if you can't pull off the spiral climb. It keeps the F4U working against gravity, and let's you keep out of his guns for the most part.

Okay well never seen you before this year unless you changed your name.

If low n slow, this is the worst position for a F4U to be in. The 109 will eat it up all day long with the ropes and Emillmans, like you said. The exact same thing would happen if the 109 was low n slow, although I think the 109 is better at fighting against BnZers when on the deck. The F4U will out manauver any 109 easily given equal speed and alt. It wouldn't even be a close fight. If the F4U has equal or more speed than the 109, the 109 is dead meat. The flaps are dangerous, and just because the 109 can hang for 1 second longer, doesn't make the plane capable of being a better turner or positon fighter.  It all comes down to situations, positions, and timing, but in certain terms it comes down to what the plane is actually capable of as well.

[MK-84]

I use 450/500 on the 262, 450 for all other 30mm planes.