Author Topic: The minimum wage machine  (Read 14286 times)

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2015, 02:01:15 PM »
In the graphic I posted, the average wage increased $0.10 in the last 32 years but in the same time period CEOs went from $490.31 to $5,419.97.

And this is precicely the problem I am talking about here.

Don't get me wrong. CEOs and business creators should make a lot of money to reap their success. I believe that they should be rewarded with high pay for the stress and risks associated with the business.

That being said, there has to become a rational point of interest for American businesses owners who survive off the public. By that I mean, a business who sells products to Americans needs Americans to be able to buy the product. There comes a scale where eventually if the Americans do not make enough money, while spending all their time at work, they fail to monitize other businesses that need American demand. So while the overall GDP has gone up based on the wealth of businesses, the structural ground beneath it has become weak, and this why we as a nation are, as Donald Trump puts it, "losing at everything".

Instead of a factory worker making a living wage doing factory skilled work leading up to the 70s, we have shifted to an employment culture where factory or retail scale work is nearly invaluable to the businesses (which is not true) and corporate media have lead us to believe that these positions are "unskilled" and deserve low pay despite the success of the business.  Unfortunately, we have turned into a socitey where "low skilled labor" is becoming the norm. We have more immagrent workers, more women workers, more teenage workers, more people with "no skills" in low paying jobs who cannot function in society without subsidies, more students with 30K in debt who have to start paying that off in 6 months after graduation who cannot find good enough paying work so they get underpaid and take less skilled jobs.

Now we are coming to a point where 2 or more people have to split the cost of a home to even afford it, rent rates have gone through the roof, education has increased 1500% in cost, we have more students in serious debt who get jobs that they cannot supprt themselves on top of the loans, people who have to work 2 BS jobs just to get by, and a society full of people my age who think they will get 45K a year after graduation for their education, but get hit with 25k for business administration jobs and then laughed at for not having skills, even though college was hard as Sheet. And now since companies are so reluctant to give out healthcare, the government has forced it upon us, and now more taxes for everyone. So IMO, if we don't make a change for the betterment of the working class in America, we will face serious stagflation, our industries will slow down, car and housing market will stagnate because no one will take out loans anymore.

Basically for college students my age, you have told us to get an expensive education or we get "low skilled jobs", take out a huge loan cause " low skilled jobs" don't pay enough to support helping  person get a college degree, we now have a degree and 45K debt but our "skills" still lack, so you pay us cheaply, even for good jobs, we still cannot afford to do anything, and the rest of the college grads or dropouts with huge debt get underemoyable jobs with "no skills" who live with their parents still because they don't get paid enough. This is the socitey we have created. I don't think it has effected us yet, but it is right around the corner if our businesses in America don't stop trying to cheat the workers out of a decent pay.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2015, 02:07:17 PM »
DmonSlyr, if you do some research I think you'll find that the richest CEOs (the outrageously rich) do not work for companies whose market is limited to U.S. consumers. These people lead multinational conglomerates which just happens to have their headquarters in the U.S. The world is their market.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2015, 02:07:33 PM »
Ridiculous.  You aren't being paid to be there, you are being paid to produce.  What you produce determines your value and your value determines how much you get paid.  An idiot flipping burgers is not worth the same as a brain surgeon.

flipping burgers means your a idiot?

Are trash men idiots?

People who sort out your lawn?

Are you impressed by wealth?

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Offline Zoney

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »
flipping burgers means your a idiot?



Because you are flipping burgers does not make you an idiot, but I think you could be an idiot and do a reasonable job flipping burgers.

There are no idiots that are brain surgeons.  That was my point.
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Offline Zoney

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #154 on: August 21, 2015, 02:24:03 PM »
Violator your argument is pure "entitlement".  Please, because you went to college, and as you stated it was so hard, you are entitled to start at 45k a year, not 25k a year.  It's 25k a year because that is the market value for the job.  Others will take it for that much if you will not.  If there weren't so many others that went to college there would be less competition for that job and maybe then you would get paid more for it.  This is econamics which I think they teach in college but I would not know because I did not go to college.  I was in the Air force my first 4 years out of High School, working.  And making 400 a month at it, but I learned a lot.
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Offline TheBug

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #155 on: August 21, 2015, 02:26:09 PM »
There are no idiots that are brain surgeons.  That was my point.

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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2015, 02:36:59 PM »
Violator your argument is pure "entitlement".  Please, because you went to college, and as you stated it was so hard, you are entitled to start at 45k a year, not 25k a year.  It's 25k a year because that is the market value for the job.  Others will take it for that much if you will not.  If there weren't so many others that went to college there would be less competition for that job and maybe then you would get paid more for it.  This is econamics which I think they teach in college but I would not know because I did not go to college.  I was in the Air force my first 4 years out of High School, working.  And making 400 a month at it, but I learned a lot.

Expected entitlement. Which is what we thought going to college was for. I thought getting a business management degree was one of the best and typically one of the hardest degrees to get to gaurantee a good job after college. It certainly wasn't easy, infact, it effected my mental status and stress status a lot. I ended up getting a great job that does take a lot of " skills" to be good in, I personally think being here for 9 hours a day takes a lot of skills within itself, but of course they undervalued my wage because of my age.. The market salery for this job at my age is BS. It was a complete shock going to different job interviews and dealing with the salaries they wanted to start me at. I denied about 5 places actually because they wouldn't give me a salery I could actually move out of my parents house with and live.

The only thing about the airforce is that, they gave you a place to live, you stayed on base, they had food, and you probably didn't have a lot of time for free time. So in a sense, yeah you were getting paid low, but they still provided you with livable means.
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Offline Zoney

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2015, 02:45:10 PM »
Brain Surgeon Apologizes for being an idiot

Good job reading the headlines only Bug.  If you would have actually read the article you would have found only this in reference to the word idiot in the article.  At no time does the Dr. "Apologize for being an idiot". 

Here is where the word "idiot" is used:

No, no: CNN "chopped" the interview up and edited the interview down so that it "emphasized" the parts that made Ben Carson, Brain Surgeon, look like an idiot.

Nice try though.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #158 on: August 21, 2015, 02:49:16 PM »
An education is the first step. Then you need experience. Only the most exceptional students are headhunted and given stellar career opportunities without first proving themselves at a reduced salary. How hard a degree is to get has nothing to do with the demand for people with that degree.

That said, in my line of business creativity is perhaps the most important trait. Unfortunately creativity is something that is undermined in our society today.

Sir Ken Robinson is a man I hold in high regard for his views on this matter:

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Offline FLOOB

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Offline TheBug

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #160 on: August 21, 2015, 02:56:17 PM »
Good job reading the headlines only Bug.   :furious :furious :mad:


Hehe, you need to lighten up.  It was a f' ing joke.
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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #161 on: August 21, 2015, 02:57:41 PM »
No. I'm paying them to do work. If they just sat in their offices not working I wouldn't pay them anything. I would fire them. Regardless of how many hours they spent "at work."

You are paying them by the hour, because in many jobs, that is the only reasonable metric by which you can measure work done.

Is it ideal for either party? No. But until we're able to move past it the whole concept of valuation of labor,  it's what we're stuck with. You can rationalize it all you like, but it is the way things are.


What do you do for a living Kampfer?

I'm a chef trying to pay my way through college.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #162 on: August 21, 2015, 03:00:06 PM »
An education is the first step. Then you need experience. Only the most exceptional students are headhunted and given stellar career opportunities without first proving themselves at a reduced salary. How hard a degree is to get has nothing to do with the demand for people with that degree.

That said, in my line of business creativity is perhaps the most important trait. Unfortunately creativity is something that is undermined in our society today.

Sir Ken Robinson is a man I hold in high regard for his views on this matter:




There are a lot of people with art degrees that have a lot of creativity and also 30K in debt who need careers too, but they get no respect from business owners because "they  don't have math skills" or "their education was easy" so they end up being bar tenders, waiters, or account executives 90% of the time.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2015, 03:26:05 PM »
You are paying them by the hour, because in many jobs, that is the only reasonable metric by which you can measure work done.

It is a metric that is forced upon me. However, how much an employee is paid per hour depends on how productive that employee is within the allotted time. If Bill and Bob work for me as graphics designers and both produce marvelous high quality designs, but Bill produce 50% more of them per hour, Bill's labor is a lot more valuable to me. Easily twice the value of Bob's work if not more, so Bill gets the bigger paycheck. But those days are gone. These days I contract a lot of freelancers overseas and they get paid per job/assignment. I don't really care how much time they spend as long as they deliver within the deadline. A much more natural way for job compensation that is not a relic of the early days of industrialization.


Is it ideal for either party? No. But until we're able to move past it the whole concept of valuation of labor,  it's what we're stuck with. You can rationalize it all you like, but it is the way things are.

Valuation of labor will always be there. The only thing that changes is how that value is determined and compensated for.


I'm a chef trying to pay my way through college.

Good for you.  :aok
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The minimum wage machine
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2015, 03:29:27 PM »

There are a lot of people with art degrees that have a lot of creativity and also 30K in debt who need careers too, but they get no respect from business owners because "they  don't have math skills" or "their education was easy" so they end up being bar tenders, waiters, or account executives 90% of the time.

Incurring debt to get an education is taking a serious risk. Doing it to get an arts degree is madness. After all, the term "starving artist" didn't come from nowhere.
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