Spit XIV and Ki-84

[Minotaur]

Fish bait?

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Karnak:
Bullethead,

You forget that there are some people who genuinely like the Ki84 and Spitfire MkXIV for the aircraft themselves not simply because they are easier to kill with.

I agree that the Ki84-Ia Hayate should be added soon and I think that it will pull many people out of the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai.

On the other hand I do not think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV (my favorite WWII aircraft) should be added to AH as a non-perk aircraft. I think it would be too powerful and disruptive to the MA if it were not perked.  As I have relatively little use for perk planes I don't see any hurry in adding the Spit XIV.

BTW, I'd hardly call people like Mitsu unskilled.

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

No, but by and large he is right.  People would fly the Ki-84 and the Spit XIV or F. 21 because they were the "best" airplane in the arena, NOT because of their historical reputation.  If you truly believe that more than a handful of people, even those who play this game, have some sort of indepth knowledge about the Ki-84 (and want to fly it BECAUSE of that), well, nevermind.  In my opinion, they don't.  

I'm not even going to bother posting a long message.  Go back up and read bullethead's message if you want to know what I'd say.

[Booky]

I would like to see both of the planes listed above. however I would expect them to be perked as well.

As for new Bombers, yes the Germans need a heavier buff, but I don't know what that would be since I don't know German airplanes well.

[Zigrat]

id like them but they better be cheap perks (im talking c hog range)

any doofus can raise 7 perk points but it keeps it from being completely dominating

[martell0]

Posted by Hristo:
British can't and shouldn't wait for new fighter any longer. We are getting 262 next version.
british dweeb need a faster plane.

Climb in Tempest!!!!  

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: martell0 ]

[oboe]

Originally posted by Bullethead:


...let's consider 14s and Franks and what they bring to the game.  More importantly, let's consider the type of pilot who'd want to fly such planes.

Simple answer:  these planes are desired by those who want the ability to run down all other planes and then out-turn them once they catch them.  People who lack the skill to do anything other than yank and bank or BnZ and therefore desire having a crutch like this.  People with no conception of how to convert E to angles and back again.  The same sort of person who uses the N1 or La7 for a crutch at present.

Still want them?

You bet I do.   But for different reasons than you suggest.          
   
The Ki.84 is a sub-400 mph aircraft.  It's not going to run down every other plane in the arena.  There are a number of planes that are going to outturn it.  There are a number of planes that outgun it.  But it is no doubt the best package Nakajima and the Japanese Army Air Force out into the sky in significant numbers during WWII.

Including an aircraft in a simulation such as Aces High pays a small but real honor to the nation that put it in the field, the company that designed and built it, and the men who flew and maintained it.  It adds variety to the game both in the MA and CT and scenarios.   There is no way I would ever discourage HTC from including a plane because I was afraid of its performance.  I do encourage HTC to perk aircraft if they become too dominant in the MA however.

There will always be people who choose to fly the hottest performing aircraft because it gives them a better chance at success.  I'd rather these people have more choices than fewer.

[FDisk]

I don't think it's fair at all to assume that people who wat the spit XIV are people who fly the N1K or the LA7. I'd be all over the kittyhawk or something more late war if that was the case. I just am in love with the spit.. I have started flying them when I started this game and I'll prolly finish with the spit too.
If you know how to fly the V it's the best plane in the game IMO.

[Bullethead]

FDisk said:
   

I don't think it's fair at all to assume that people who wat the spit XIV are people who fly the N1K or the LA7.

Perhaps not the same people, but people who want the same thing these current planes give you only without the stigma that comes with them.  They want to both go faster and turn better than people in most other planes, which can only do one or the other well.

Good pilots can beat you no matter what the plane match-up is.  But it should be obvious to all that at least 80% of the pilot population isn't that good.  And they know it themselves, so they want to even the odds by having a plane that's superior in almost all situations they're likely to get into.  Because such average pilots are the vast majority, we currently see huge herds of N1s and La7s, even though perhaps only half of average pilots fly them regularly.  

The spit9 and 51 also get a lot of use, but they are borderline on this double-advantaged class themselves, although not enough to make them truly spectacular.  Most other planes are rarely flown in comparison, which is too bad.  Not only did HTC put a lot of effort into making them, but they are perfectly good planes.  They're just stuck in an incompatible environment, thanks to the unlimited availability of double-advantaged planes.

I don't see how adding Franks and 14s would help this situation any.  At best, there will still be the same overwhelming abundance of double-advantaged planes in the air, although there would be a greater variety of types of them.  At worst, having more of them on the plane list will encourage more people to fly them, to the further detriment of the other planes.

   

If you know how to fly the V it's the best plane in the game IMO.

I feel the same way about the FWa8.  But in a world filled with turnfighters that can run it down, how much action does it see in the arena?  Damn little.  The main FW you see is the Dora because it's fast enough to be hard for anything to catch.  But all the FWs types taken together saw only 1/2 as much use as the N1 last TD.  Considering the respective production figures for these planes, this is ridiculous.  But as long as there is no shortage of planes with both speed and turn advantages on it, I don't see this situation changing any.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Bullethead ]

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Bullethead ]

[Bullethead]

oboe said:
 

The Ki.84 is a sub-400 mph aircraft.

Hardly.  It could do well over 400.  Below 10k it was neck-and-neck with the Pony and even slightly faster at about 5k.  It was, simply, one of the fastest planes of the war, at least below 10k.  Which is where most AH fights seem to take place.

True, it doesn't turn QUITE as well as a few other planes, but given the Frank's ability to keep and regain E during a turnfight, this is no problem at all.  As for guns, it's got the same as a spit and I don't see anybody thinking that can't hurt you.

 

Including an aircraft in a simulation such as Aces High pays a small but real honor to the nation that put it in the field, the company that designed and built it, and the men who flew and maintained it.

Hogwash.  Putting a plane into AH is a business decision pure and simple.  "Will it make the game more fun, thereby keeping old players and bringing in new ones?"  Or at least that's how it SHOULD be decided.  And the vast bulk of end users for sure don't care about tributes--they just want a fun game.

 

There is no way I would ever discourage HTC from including a plane because I was afraid of its performance. I do encourage HTC to perk aircraft if they become too dominant in the MA however.

OK, then tell my why planes become too dominant?  Hmmm....  just a wild guess here, but I think it might be because of their performance.  Maybe if they were both faster and more maneuverable than most other planes in the game, a lot of dweebs would fly them in hopes of gaining an edge that their lack of skill denies them, rather than learning to fly the other planes more effectively.

But I just pulled that out of my ass.  I've only been flying since '94 so no doubt lack your extensive experience in these matters.  I'm sure you've got a better answer.

I'm not afraid of fighting any plane.  What I am afraid of is the effect on play balance and overall fun that introducing more very fast turnfighters will have on the game.  We already see way too damn much of this type of plane.  Adding more of them will definitely not remove FWs from the endangered species list.

 

There will always be people who choose to fly the hottest performing aircraft because it gives them a better chance at success.  I'd rather these people have more choices than fewer.

I'd rather see these people learn to really fly and fight relying on their skill instead of their crutch plane.  Better quality opposition equals more fun and challenge.  Constantly fighting dweebs in superplanes gets boring after a short while.

[Tac]

Its a sad fact. Give players something that gives them an easy edge over others and it gets overused/abused.

I'd urge HTC to perk planes based on their performance against the other planes in the set. When and IF HTC adds early war planes, who's gonna fly them? I hardly see 109 f4's or c202/205's out there. Its mostly n1ks, la7's, 109g10's p51d's and 190d9's. Why? Those planes easily give a player the advantage over the rest of the planeset. Some of these planes do require some skill to be succesfull in them, but the fact remains they do give a performance boost over the great majority of the planeset.

I dunno if itd be best to separate the tour into 10 day periods first 10 days free early war planes, mid war perked (cheaply) late war planes perked (expensive), next 10 days have the early war planes gain 2X perk gaining, mid war unperked, late war perked (cheaply), last 10 days have early war planes 4X perkie gain, mid war 2X perkie gain, late war unperked.

The uber monsters like tempest, me262 , etc remain perked but their price lowers every 10 day period.

OR

perk them as per their performance vs the rest of the set.

*shrug*

In short, id like to see a balanced use of the planeset, not have 90% of the playerbase zooming around in late war speed planes or late war turnplanes all the time. So far, its seems any early planes modeled by HTC see so little use its a waste of efforts.

[NUTTZ]

Bullethead, Take your own advice and learn to fly the 202. You are seeking the same thing your complaining about.

Reread your post.

NUTTZ

[NUTTZ]

Tac, at least you attack the plane  and not the people who fly them.

By some peoples Idea of why not to bring the Ki into AH, Would be the same as removing the F4-D,P38,P47,F6F, and half the LW iron.

Think about it...


NUTTZ

[NUTTZ]

Yea Urchin, rewrite history and lets forget japan ever had a KI-84    Geeeezzzzz...

I find it very amusing you people don't want to see the Ki-84 come to AH, because it was too good a fighter, so you want to rewrite history and act like it was never made or in WW2. And then go as far as having the Insight of peoples personalities of who would fly them IF they were in here.

Well what is it? to good a plane to bring into AH?

Oh, then YOU won't have the advantage in your favorite plane?

Or is it these Dweebs are not dweebs and kill you? cause if they were surely "dweebs" then why be afraid of what they fly?

KI will be the sharpest turner AND the fastest plane? get real!

Learn to fight N1K2's, learn to fight KI's and quit blaming it on the Plane or the "dweeb" flying it and put the blame where it belongs... on your lack of flying your own plane to it's proper abilities.

NUTTZ

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: NUTTZ ]

[Karnak]

The Fw190D-9 has one short comming, it doesn't turn well.  In all other things it is near the top of the performance bracket.

Very poor turn rate.
Very poor turn radius.
Poor E retention.
2nd fastest non-perk fighter at AH combat altitudes.
2nd or 3rd best climber.
Best roll rate.
Good visibility.
Good ammo load.
Adequate guns (its second weakest point).
Plenty of fuel range.
Great acceleration.
Great zoom climber.
Great diver.

Compare that with the N1K2 that gets whined about so much:

4th best turn rate.
Good turn radius.
Great E retention.
Below average speed at AH combat altitudes.
Good climber.
Poor roll rate.
Good visibility.
Great ammo load.
Great firepower.
Plenty of fuel range.
Good acceleration.
Good zoom climber.
Good diver.

Why do we not hear about the advantages of the Fw190D-9?  All we hear are the whines about the N1K2.

The Ki84 will be a better rolling, worse turning, slightly faster (392mph at 19,000ft, not 400+mph and 345mph at sea level) and slightly worse turning fighter than the N1K2.  The Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 will still easily out fly it if flown to their strengths.

Why does it surprise you guys that Japan's late war fighters are capable?  They surprised us with the A6M Zero (the first carrier fighter to match the performance of land based fighters mind you), why would they suddenly be unable to produce good fighters?

I see so much ranting about how your 1942 and 1943 German fighters are at a disadvantage against late 1944 Japanese fighters.  Well, what did you expect?  Do you so believe the German propaganda that it is impossible for you to accept that a 1944 Japanese fighter will hand a 1942 German fighter its ass?

Do you want everything that gives your preffered ride trouble to be perked oe removed? How is that fair? Doesn't setting it up so that your 1942 or 1943 German fighter has the advantage just force the problem onto somebody else while eliminating most of the aircraft from the game?

Whay does a German fighter have to be the top dog?  What is wrong with a Japanese fighter being the top dog?

I think that the Ki84-Ia Hayate would be fine in the context of our late war planeset.  It'll annoy me in some ways, but it'll make a lot of other people happy and allow the to have quite a bit of fun? It won't replace the N1K2 due to its ammo load, but it will drain some of those guys off of the N1K2 numbers.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by NUTTZ:
Yea Urchin, rewrite history and lets forget japan ever had a KI-84    Geeeezzzzz...

Do me a favor and point out for me where I said this.  Don't recall saying it, but I may be mistaken.

I find it very amusing you people don't want to see the Ki-84 come to AH, because it was too good a fighter, so you want to rewrite history and act like it was never made or in WW2. And then go as far as having the Insight of peoples personalities of who would fly them IF they were in here.

Again, please point out where we said we want to re-write history so this plane won't be put in Aces High.  About our amatuer pyschology- well, you can feel free to disagree, I couldn't care less what your opinion is anyway.

Well what is it? to good a plane to bring into AH?

Yes, pretty much.  I'm not sure if it is "to good", but when the Spit 14 or the Ki-84 comes in, you will see probably 75% of the N1K, Spit, and La-7 pilots switch to it.  Not to sure about the P-51 pilots.  But you'd see 75% of the population of N1K, Spit, and La7 drivers jump to that airplane.  It'd have 30% of the kills the first month it was introduced, I can almost guarantee it.

Oh, then YOU won't have the advantage in your favorite plane?

Not gonna bother responding to this.  Oh, by the way, where'd you get your "Insight of peoples personalities "?  Only valid when YOU do it, huh?

Or is it these Dweebs are not dweebs and kill you? cause if they were surely "dweebs" then why be afraid of what they fly?

Please point out to me where I said this.  You can go back to any thread, by the way.  Not sure, but I'm fairly certain I've never said this either.

KI will be the sharpest turner AND the fastest plane? get real!

Your right, my mistake.  It would be faster than the N1k, and turn marginally worse.  It would still turn better than any 109, any 190, any P51, any P47, the F4U, the La5 and 7, the Yak, the C202, the C205, and probably the F6F and the P38 as well.  By the way, I personally don't consider the N1K slow.  

Learn to fight N1K2's, learn to fight KI's and quit blaming it on the Plane or the "dweeb" flying it and put the blame where it belongs... on your lack of flying your own plane to it's proper abilities.

Thanks for the advice.  I'm sure I can use it      
NUTTZ

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: NUTTZ ]

By the way.. I think you MIGHT be considered somewhat biased, considering your score from last tour.

"nuttz has 203 kills and has been killed 87 times in the N1K2"...

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]