Author Topic: Spit XIV and Ki-84  (Read 2283 times)

Offline Hristo

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Spit XIV and Ki-84
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
Oh, just found out. 212 vs 16 in Tour 2 in A-8  :). That's my personal best.

Jochen, Il-2 has a lot to show to AH. A lot indeed !

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
Just one point.  The La7 was a late 1944, mostly 1945 aircraft.

It was the La5Fn and La5 that were the midwar varients.

Personally I have nothing against adding the Ki84 and Spit XIV, but I do say be prepared for an eventual perking of the XIV.

The Ki84 would be the fastest Japanese plane to date, and would be an excellent E fighter, but would still be VERY slow by arena standards. Great plane, but with a defineable weakness.

The Spit XIV on the other hand (without an intentionally crippled FM) would become a de facto plane of choice overnight. Its that good. Turns well, is fast, climbs well, great guns.  I know I wouldn't fly anything else, and I personally despise Spitfires (no offense to Spit types, just not my thing).

It would make the Chog infestation look like a minor annoyance by comparison.

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
Spit XIV isn't that fast either. And it is not such a good diver. It is also fragile plane. P51, G-10, D-9, La 7, Typhoon and Tempest can all outrun/outdive it at lower alts. Not sure about Yak 9U though.

Not to mention Arado and 262 can outpace it too.

Offline Bullethead

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« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
oboe said:
 
Quote
Well now it is starting to sound like the anti-Ki.84/Spit XIV people want them excluded from the game because they may/will out-perform their favorite or usual ride.

You're missing the point.  The point is that there SHOULD NOT BE A "TOP PLANE" in the arena.  The problem we have today is that we have freely available crutch planes that do too many things too well, at least in the environment of the MA.  In the real war, things might have been different but this isn't the real war, it's a game and games require balance to be fun and interesting over the long haul.

So yeah, the crutch planes we already have and the new ones other people want to add DO out-perform my favorite rides, at least in ways important in the MA.  But they also out-perform EVERYBODY's favorite ride, unless you happen to be a dweeb and are in love with a crutch plane BECAUSE it's a crutch.  Given their dominance, I cannot believe more than a handful of people care what particular type of plane their crutch is, just as long as it does its job as a crutch.

People are always saying AH needs more new planes.  But when they offer specifics, it's always "we need uberplane X to give country Y a plane to counter existing uberplane Z."  Like now with the Frank.  Seems to me like the people who want things like spit14s and Franks do so because they really just want a crutch for their other arm now.  My guess at their thought process is as follows:

 
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Damn, I'm sick of N1s and La7s, but I'm such a dweeb that I need something similar to compete.  Something better if possible.  Hmmm, I know, I'll find some plane at least as uber as the best we already have, that might even be superior in the context of the MA.  Then I'll pretend like it's my most favoritest plane in the whole wide world, that my wittle heart will break if I don't get it, and I'll whine and hold my breath until HTC gives it to me (unperked of course) and then I'll kick bellybutton all over those damn N1 and La7 dweebs.  And if anybody complains that now my "most favoritest plane" is dominating the arena, I'll tell them they're just jealouse because their favorite plane isn't as good.  Or that they're racists and don't want good planes from non-US countries to kick ass, or that they're being mean to me, or otherwise wrap myself in a flag sewn of politically correct BS that none dare gainsay.  What do I care if no other planes fly?  I have my own wittle crutch now, I'm happy.

This is such a great attitude  :rolleyes:.  Keep this up and pretty soon AH will be all Korean War planes, with the F-104 perked  :mad:.

 
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Certainly you guys must see the illogic in arguing to exclude from a game that is fundamentally about WWII air-to-air combat, the two finest fighters produced by Japan and Great Britain in WWII because they are too good?  How bad a business decision for HTC can that be?

Certainly you must see the illogic in demanding planes whose presence in the game will even further imbalance an already skewed plane set.  

You want to talk business decisions?  How about considering the huge investment HTC has already put into all the dozens of perfectly good planes in the game that, because they're not "uber" in MA terms, never get flown?  Planes that attracted many of their customers in the first place.  Remember, it's the existing planes that people come to fly, not those that might or might not appear in the future.

Well, as it stands now, HTC's investment in those planes is money down the rat hole, and the hopes of all the customers who want to see them flying are unfulfilled.  So customers are unhappy, except the dweebs whose only concern is having the biggest airial Johnson to make up for their own inadequacies.

So what's a good decision for HTC in this context?  Introduce more uberplanes to counter the existing uberplanes?  I don't think so.  That's just writing off the investment in all the other planes not flown now and further alienating those who want to fly or fight against something other than the crutch du jour.  Besides, this method requires a further investment in the new crutches.

Or HTC can take away the existing crutches and severely restrict the availability of any new crutches introduced.  Guess what?  Suddenly AH's effective plane will at least effectively double, if not quadruple, as more planes come into common use.  Now all that investment in existing planes is paying off.  Now the customers who came to fly and fight them are happy.  And it requires no further expense--just flip a switch on the host.

This isn't ABOUT WW2.  This isn't even a sim of WW2.  It's an air-combat GAME that only bears a resemblance to WW2 because the planes are from WW2--how they are used here is in no way historical.  As such, arguments based on WW2 historical context should have no bearing at all on the business decisions of HTC, except for things necessary to get scenarios to work.

AH is a game.  HTC has the highest possible interest in keeping this game fresh, interesting, and fun, because that's what keeps its customers paying.  If the unlimited availability of an existing plane threatens these goals, or if adding a new plane would do so, then HTC should get rid of the existing plane and perhaps not even add the new plane.

Offline Hristo

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Spit XIV and Ki-84
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »
Again, we have perk system. If La-7, Tempest and 262 are here, I don't see why we would not have XIV and Ki84 too.

I'd like to see a varying ENY/perk point system. All planes are perked, some more than others. And only because of their arena usage.

This means, you can fly a Tempest if it is rarely flown. The more people jump in Tempest, it perk price goes up. It should all be handled by the system itself.

This would be best plane equalizer, IMO.

Offline Zigrat

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« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
an la7 isnt much different from a spit xiv. slightly faster, slightly less turn. 3 b20s vs 2 20mm and 2 50s. same duration of fire.

pretty damned comparable.

the la7 is the best plane in the game, hands down. ppl whine about n1k and spitfire, but they are easy to beat. just run. la7, well good luck  :) (at arena combat altitudes anyway -- itd be ineresting to see how itd perform in a scenario environment)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead:
The point is that there SHOULD NOT BE A "TOP PLANE" in the arena.

There will always be a top plane in the arena.  You can't stop it.  Even if all flight models, damage models, ammo loads, armaments and ordinances were made identical people would still flock to some aircraft more than others.

Those of you who don't like it are simply going to have to accept that you can't control how other people fly.  Its their $14.95.

You are also making a huge assumption about the Ki84.  We don't know how it would pan out in performance. If it proved to be more arena dominating than the N1K2 I'm sure it would get perked.  Another thing, don't simply think that the N1K2 and Spit IX would keep their numbers and the Ki84 would get another 16 percent of the population who currently fly other things.  Most of the Ki84's numbers would come from the Spit IX and N1K2's numbers.

As far as the Spitfire MkXIV, that's a perk plane so don't worry about it swarming the arena.  It'll cost from the Ta152H-1's price to the Tempest MkV's price.

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2001, 06:45:00 PM »
TAC, I beleive Pyro said "they will look into the FM for the N1k2, and change if needed" Not that it was porked and it will be changed, So the FM may or may not be porked, Not that is definately porked and being changed. BIG difference IMO.

NUTTZ

 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:

Dont misjudge me, I consider any n1k driver to be the scum of the earth. Flying a plane with a known FM defect that gives it an unholy advantage is almost like exploiting a bug. The problem is with the plane yes (its getting fixed next version hopefully), but its the players that abuse it that imo are the biggest problem.


[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

Offline oboe

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« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead:
AH is a game.  HTC has the highest possible interest in keeping this game fresh, interesting, and fun, because that's what keeps its customers paying.

I agree completely.  But its the regular introduction of new planes to the mix that plays a major role in keeping the game fresh and interesting.  Even the most balanced and competitive planeset would get stale in time.  You have to keep adding aircraft to keep players interested.  And sooner or later, you're gonna have to add the Ki.84 and Spit XIV (sooner rather than later if the primary focus of your sim is on late war years).   When I speak of adding a plane to AH, I'm talking about everything- Scenarios, the Combat Theater and the Main Arena.  It sounds like you are focusing your objections exclusively on its effect on the MA.   I agree the MA is out of balance right now, as Deja's tour stats show.  But HTC has the perk system in place that can correct this situation.  They just need the will to do it.

For me, and for alot of others I hope, this sim IS about WWII air combat.  If all the planes here were replaced with the metal monsters of Crimson Skies, I honestly wouldn't have even bothered with the initial download.

  :)

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Sorry Ziggy but I gotta seriously disagree.

The La7 will in no way, shape or form, turn like a Spit XIV. Contrary to the populist babble, the La7 is a poor sustained turning aircraft, with 360 turn times in the same range as a P51D (last time I checked it). The Spit XIV should according to the test documentation I have seen, be in the same general sustained turning ability range as the Spit IX.

And a poor diver? Since when has the Spit IX been bad at diving in AH, and the XIV should have the same or better abilities.

The Spit also is quite effective up to high altitudes, while the La7 runs out of Oomph as the fastest deck aircraft at around 5k and is totally dominated by 10k. The only place the Spit is slower is way down low.

And your comparing a B20 20mm cannon to a hispano 20mm? I will take the 2 hispanos and 2 .50's over the 3 B20's any day of the week. *shrugs* just a personal preference though.

Don't get me wrong guys, the La7 is a quite effective aircraft, but its far from as good as many on this board would lead us to believe.

The Spit XIV however is lightyears ahead of the La7 in capabilities.

Offline NUTTZ

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« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2001, 07:04:00 PM »
Urchin, Most of my flight time is limited to short sorties,I find myself logging in and upping an enemy capped field. The N1k2 is ideal for my flight personality. On the occasion I have alot of time to play I hop in my Jug and go hunting. If we go by K/D's my Jug rides are MUCH better than my N1k2 flights 3 and 0 against the N1k2 :)

Also was stated 75% of the N1k2 players will jump into the KI as their "crutch" well that leaves 25% of the N1K2 pilots that don't fly it as a crutch to make up for their lack of ACM. Problem as i stated before the KI-84 and the A-26 are my 2 favorite rides. N1k2 FM is close to the KI therefor i fly it. On the other hand the B-26 is far apart in FM from the vader.

Will i jump in the KI once it's here YOU BETCHA!
 Not as a crutch, but as a love of the ride, just as the pony drivers and f4U people love their rides. But we get called dweebs, so be it. If the FM were perfect, we will still be called dweebs, but it is really getting old...

If its a gameplay issue and the MA needs to be balanced, Perk it, wouldn't bother me I'll have enough kills and perkies to fly it forever. I never screamed perk any plane but the F4U was perked, maybe because MA balance maybe because less than 200 were produced. The Ki on the other hand where 3500 plus were produced can hardly be overlooked. If Japan had materials AND pilots at the introduction of the KI things would of been very different.

NUTTZ

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
NUTTZ,

Good point.

It is offensive that we who like Spits and N1K2s (and Ki84s) constantly get accused of only liking them because of the advantage they give us.  Our accusers have very low opinions of us and very high opinions of themselves.

Why is it assumed that people can only really like German aircraft for the sake of the aircraft?

I have been a Spitfire fan for more than a decade.  I happen to think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV is the most beautiful WWII aircraft by far.  But no, I have to be looking for a crutch to like it.

You guys also don't like talking about the advantages that German aircraft bring to the table.  Why not?  Do you need to keep the focus on the "other" guy's kite?
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Offline VFJACKAL

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« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2001, 09:52:00 PM »
Yes "They" do. I'm not a "Great Ace" as are some in here. I'll fly the Spit IXV as much as I can. I also feel like some of the others in the respect that I fly what I like. Not because I feel I have an advantage but because I like the plane. It suits my way of flying. I get killed by everything in the game. But I kill everything as well.  

Since coming back to this game I have picked up on a couple things (not that they mean anything to you all). I don't try to fight a fight that I am at a disadvatage in from the start. I used to try anything and everything to get to them. Not anymore. Sure , I'll dive into a furball knowing that I'll probably not get out of it with my butt , but it's always to help a teammate out. Not because I think I can kill all 5 or 6 that are down there but instead to maybe to help him get away. I have learned not to fight certain types of planes without at least the same alt. I have also learned that Ho'ing a Nik or any other big gunned plane will most of the time leave me missing valuable parts.

Spits are not the problem nor the Nik's. (I for one don't like Nik's and use to fly them all the time). Not because they are "The Dweeb Ride" , but because I think they may be a little overmodled. I don't know the roll rate of a 109G10 in 19XX. I could care less. Anyone that can prove to me that roll rates and Speeds at certain alts are so definatly attainable in here I welcome.

This is a game of Airplanes. The A6M gives me in my spit fits. Why? Cuz I'm a sucker for the turn fight. I don't think any plane in the game can match it turning wise. So I say Perk it cuz it does something better than my Spit. (J/K)

If your LW plane dies to a spit then you are to blame. If my Spit dies to a Nik then its my fault. If I die to a LW plane then it's my fault.

The Spit and KI in question were some of the greatest planes ever made. No reason not to have them and to let people enjoy them. All this perk this and perk that crap is just useless. If you want an areana full of LW planes to fight then have HTC make an LW Room. Same goes for the U.S. stuff. But because your LW or U.S. plane cant hold up to a Spit IXV is a weak argument.

It truly is the Pilot and not the plane. If it was the plane then "Dweebs" as you call us would rule with our half bellybutton talent and superior plane.

Just my opinion and not directed to know one.  ;)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2001, 12:12:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
NUTTZ,

Good point.

It is offensive that we who like Spits and N1K2s (and Ki84s) constantly get accused of only liking them because of the advantage they give us.  Our accusers have very low opinions of us and very high opinions of themselves.

Why is it assumed that people can only really like German aircraft for the sake of the aircraft?

I have been a Spitfire fan for more than a decade.  I happen to think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV is the most beautiful WWII aircraft by far.  But no, I have to be looking for a crutch to like it.

You guys also don't like talking about the advantages that German aircraft bring to the table.  Why not?  Do you need to keep the focus on the "other" guy's kite?

Give it a rest Karnak.  I have NEVER said that EVERYONE flies the Spit or N1K because it gives them an advantage.  I HAVE said that probably 95% of the pilots that fly those planes (or in the case of the Spitfire XIV or F. 21 WOULD fly the plane) fly it because it gives them an advantage (or a "crutch", however you want to put it), because it is true.  

Furthermore, you KNOW it is true.  Why else would you say that if the Spitfire XIV was introduced it would have to be a perk plane?  Would the legions of N1K pilots suddenly re-discover their love for the great old British warbird?  Nooooooppppeee, I don't THINK that is the reason that it would become the most popular plane in the arena overnight.

As far as having generally low opinions of others, yea, thats actually the truth.  Generally, human beings are ignorant, selfish, stupid slobs - this includes all aspects of society.  People want to take the easiest path they can possibly find, and it is not different in video games than in real life.

I'm sorry you feel offended by the belief that most people who fly the N1K (or want the Ki-84 or Spit XIV or F 21) want it for a crutch and not because they actually "love" the plane, but by and large I'd say it is the truth.  The difference is that their advocates are smart enough to attempt to gloss over their real motivation for wanting the plane.

If the most popular planes in Aces High were  "famous" planes, by Western standards anyway, I'd believe your argument.  But that isn't the case.  Three of the top 6 are fairly well known.  The P-51D, yes, that plane has an outstanding reputation in the U.S, I think probably even the most ignorant Americans would know the Mustang hasn't always been a sports car made by Ford.  The Spitfire, again- a very well known plane in the U.S. and I presume Europe.  The F4U-1D, slightly less well known among the general populace but still very well known amoung history buffs and such.  The problem with this theory lies with the other 3 planes.  The N1K2?  What the hell is that?  Oh.. it was called the George.. yea, I may have read about it in a couple of WW2 books I read as a child.  Most used plane in the arena.  Since the VAST majority of Aces High customers are of the European or North American bent, I HIGHLY doubt they were huge fans of the plane and were drawn to Aces High because THIS plane was in it.  The LA-7?  Its a SOVIET plane?  The Soviets had an air force in WW2?  Never read about any of that in ANY of the books I read as a child.  I'm sure we have some Russian and Eastern European players that may have heard of the plane, but again, I doubt that many customers were lured to the game just because the LA-7 was in it.  I also doubt that many players fly the N1K or the La7 because it is their "favorite" WW2 airplane of ALL TIME!  And lastly, the F4U-1C?  Whats this?  The Corsair had CANNONS?  That fact was never mentioned in ANY of the books I read as a child.  I really honestly doubt that many Corsair fans just HAD TO HAVE the F4U-1C because all the other ones "sucked".  Especially with such an insignificant production run compared with the other varients.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2001, 12:14:00 AM »
Quote
Also was stated 75% of the N1k2 players will jump into the KI as their "crutch" well that leaves 25% of the N1K2 pilots that don't fly it as a crutch to make up for their lack of ACM. Problem as i stated before the KI-84 and the A-26 are my 2 favorite rides. N1k2 FM is close to the KI therefor i fly it. On the other hand the B-26 is far apart in FM from the vader.

 

No Nuttz, that would leave 24.99% of N1K2 pilots that would still fly the N1K2 because it turns better than the Ki-84 and had more ammo.  The other two guys would keep flying it because it really WAS their favorite WW2 airplane.