Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[shift8]

Google "conspiracy morons will believe anything" and have a good laugh. 

Wow it linked me back to this thread!

[GScholz]

 

[nrshida]

I work in IT security and deal with encryption protocols and methodology all the time.

Do you apply and maintain or create Vulcan?

If Pierre Sprey (co-designer of the F-16) says the F-35 is garbage, that is good enough for me.

He was not a co-designer of anything DaveBB. Have to be very sceptical about this individual's claims. He's said some outrageously contradictory things and been deliberately unclear about his roles. Really tragically stuck in a very narrow and rigid belief system. He only gets so much attention because the media wants him to do his performing monkey act to support their unfounded ideas. I also listened at first but do some more research on him and especially the design issues he's discussing and you'll see he's a charlatan.


I'm sorry to say this but there's an awful lot of Battlestar Galactica conservatism over technology being demonstrated here. I don't know if this is some kind of cultural meta-level of paranoia about progress but even with its associated problems the advantages are game-changing and obviously going to go forward.

Just setting the actual artefact of the programme aside for a minute, the development process they've used is astoundingly well conceived and executed. A good percentage of the world's experts in this area or that have collaborated on an international level to achieve this. It's also been done economically and accountably if you make an actual like-for-like comparison. Sort of makes the peanut throwing from the gallery a bit, well, backwards to be honest. <shrug>

Just watch and see. As the software matures you'll see what the hardware can do and vice-versa.

[Vulcan]

Google "conspiracy morons will believe anything" and have a good laugh. 

So are you claiming the chinese did not break into Lockheeds systems and steal any data?

[Toad]

Good, I finally got you to admit that everything the USAF says is not a lie.

And now you just need to understand that everything the USAF says is not necessarily the truth. It'll be an important step. I am not hopeful.

There is very little technical data about the F-35 aside from general numbers...The only known characteristics of the plane are some known data points on the aircraft's thrust, weight, wing loading, AoA clearance, and simple stuff like that.

Exactly; what is out there can't even be 100% verified. We know what they decided to tell us. That's all.

And lastly, you are awfully negative about the planes future for someone who ALSO doesn't have the data you claim the rest of us don't. It is completely rational to form an opinion based on the information that is available: much of which is known for a fact.

Here's some rational information that is available and known for a fact. Every modern military jet aircraft that has been touted as the Swiss Army Knife of the air, the airplane that can do every mission with élan and great success.....hasn't been able to do so.

The old phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is applicable. The F-35 will likely do one or two missions well at best; perhaps its stealth strike mission, so maybe "Jack of all trades, master of ONE" would be more applicable.

The rest of the jobs? It'll be mediocre at best when compared to an aircraft dedicated to that mission. The CAS mission springs to mind here. Example: compared to the F-22 it'll be mediocre at best as a dedicated air superiority fighter.

Many apparently think mediocre is good enough. Not all will agree with that.

It's clear in this thread that some are victims of the old "Generals always fight the last war" adage. The next full scale, all out war won't be like the two Iraq wars. Both Russia and China are evolving aircraft and anti-air defenses to try to neutralize the threat they see from US aircraft like the F-22 and F-35. To presume they will be unable to use their technology to counter these aircraft to some large or small degree is.....fantasy. Mediocre may well turn into death trap.

i think we'd all just better hope we never have to find out if the F-35 is the Wunderplane the Internet Gurus say it is.

Also the government are just a bunch of liars" conspiracy theory.

Uh....have you been paying attention to your government lately? You know, the most transparent administration in history?

Yeah...I pretty much believe my government is a bunch of liars from top to bottom. The "spin" is "in" every time they open their mouths or release a press report.

You may not believe that now but inevitably you will.

And now...as Eagl Lead has done, I think it's time to plug in the burners and exit the thread.

Y'all have some fine speculation now, y'hear?

AMF.

[shift8]

And now you just need to understand that everything the USAF says is not necessarily the truth. It'll be an important step. I am not hopeful.

Exactly; what is out there can't even be 100% verified. We know what they decided to tell us. That's all.


Here's some rational information that is available and known for a fact. Every modern military jet aircraft that has been touted as the Swiss Army Knife of the air, the airplane that can do every mission with élan and great success.....hasn't been able to do so.

The old phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is applicable. The F-35 will likely do one or two missions well at best; perhaps its stealth strike mission, so maybe "Jack of all trades, master of ONE" would be more applicable.

The rest of the jobs? It'll be mediocre at best when compared to an aircraft dedicated to that mission. The CAS mission springs to mind here. Example: compared to the F-22 it'll be mediocre at best as a dedicated air superiority fighter.

Many apparently think mediocre is good enough. Not all will agree with that.

It's clear in this thread that some are victims of the old "Generals always fight the last war" adage. The next full scale, all out war won't be like the two Iraq wars. Both Russia and China are evolving aircraft and anti-air defenses to try to neutralize the threat they see from US aircraft like the F-22 and F-35. To presume they will be unable to use their technology to counter these aircraft to some large or small degree is.....fantasy. Mediocre may well turn into death trap.

i think we'd all just better hope we never have to find out if the F-35 is the Wunderplane the Internet Gurus say it is.

Uh....have you been paying attention to your government lately? You know, the most transparent administration in history?

Yeah...I pretty much believe my government is a bunch of liars from top to bottom. The "spin" is "in" every time they open their mouths or release a press report.

You may not believe that now but inevitably you will.

And now...as Eagl Lead has done, I think it's time to plug in the burners and exit the thread.

Y'all have some fine speculation now, y'hear?

AMF.

You have a truly remarkable capacity for disregarding facts, figures, and the specific data that is available so that you can declare it all moot and substitute a bunch of loose historical generalizations that you regard as ironclad no matter what the situation.

Enjoy your fantasy land! Dont forget to coat that plane of yours in tin foil before you lite those burners!   

[GScholz]

So are you claiming the chinese did not break into Lockheeds systems and steal any data?

That they try is a given, but I don't know if the Chinese have managed to successfully do so, or how relevant any data they may have got is. In any case it is irrelevant because hacking into a business computer system with internet access is totally different from hacking a military radio link communications system. And please don't post links to articles with civilian "expert" talking heads like yourself saying otherwise.

[Zimme83]

I would guess that they stole a lot...

[GScholz]

They don't need to steal anything to make something that looks vaguely similar. I too can make up my own stealth fighter in 3ds or Blender.

[Zimme83]

Well... You can make a picture of a plane maybe, it's not the same as designing something that can fly.

[GScholz]

Designing a plane that looks somewhat like another plane is difficult how? And the J-31 doesn't really look much like a F-35. The intake area perhaps. I also looked up the alleged "hack" and it apparently took place in 2007, but not at Lockheed Martin. It was a subcontractor that allegedly got hacked, and LM has stated that classified information is protected and remains secure. I would be very surprised if LM even has sensitive data on systems connected to the internet. It would be foolish and I don't think LM are fools in any way shape or form. These guys have been in this "skunky" business since the 1940s.

[Zimme83]

Yep. Pure coincident...

[GScholz]

You don't need to hack a company to be inspired by their designs. Just look at Soviet aircraft from the Cold War. And diverterless intakes have been around since the '90s. There are older Chinese fighters using them like the J-10B from the early 2000s.

[shift8]

I do love how the Chinese like to copy our supposedly horrible planes! 

[Vulcan]

That they try is a given, but I don't know if the Chinese have managed to successfully do so, or how relevant any data they may have got is.

Hold on a second, you virtually called me a conspiracy theorist and now you say you don't know?

You do realize the RSA and subsequent Lockheed hacks are public knowledge, in the public domain. Yet you make yourself out to be a massive expert on this, and then talk down to me because you think I'm a conspiracy nutjob.

Read here: http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/32437/intelligence/china-stole-plans-f-35-aircraft.html

Chinese hackers have allegedly stolen as much as 50 terabytes of data, including the details of the fighter’s radar systems, engine schematics, “aft deck heating contour maps,” designs to cool exhaust gases and the method the jet uses to track targets.

I've never met anyone so stubbornly in denial.