Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 81224 times)

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #930 on: September 08, 2016, 12:09:41 PM »
I'm sure the air frames are expected to last more than 7000 hours...
It's true that it isn't an issue yet since the fleet is so young but it's still a major problem that need to be fixed and all the existing air frames need to be modified.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #931 on: September 08, 2016, 01:13:53 PM »
That doesn't assert the people who are working on it haven't found themselves in a unplanned and less than ideal situation and are now facing an extremely difficult set of problems to solve while trying to put a positive spin on it.

That is an assumption on your part.


Why are they accepting the delay and redesigning if the aircraft will never reach this number of hours?

What delay? There was no delay in production or in training for the USMC. It had no impact on the timeline. The only thing that was put on hold until fixes were made was the stress testing itself, for obvious reasons. I hope you realize this was two and a half years ago and the problem was fixed the same year? I believe it cost the F-35B 50 lbs extra weight.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #932 on: September 08, 2016, 01:17:32 PM »
I'm sure the air frames are expected to last more than 7000 hours...
It's true that it isn't an issue yet since the fleet is so young but it's still a major problem that need to be fixed and all the existing air frames need to be modified.

It was fixed two years ago. This is history we're arguing over. Yes the F-35 is designed for a 8000 flight hours service life, or approximately 30 - 50 years. The test aircraft had accumulated 9,480 hours when the cracks were discovered. On our F-16s we had to replace the wings at 4000 hours due to cracks.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 01:25:25 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #933 on: September 08, 2016, 02:01:17 PM »
That is an assumption on your part.

Just to balance the assumptions on your part, nothing more than that really.


What delay? There was no delay in production or in training for the USMC. It had no impact on the timeline. The only thing that was put on hold until fixes were made was the stress testing itself, for obvious reasons. I hope you realize this was two and a half years ago and the problem was fixed the same year? I believe it cost the F-35B 50 lbs extra weight.

I note you ignored the points about load versus fatigue and the point about frame hours. It isn't nothing, there was a delay in the development process and a redesign. All of that amounts to additional cost.

It's irrelevant really. The point is the continual implication everything is tickety boo just because the official line says so. This was a counter-example. 50 lbs is quite a lot by the way looking at how close they are to the limits. You can't just keep adding mass with STOVL. What did they do, go back to using Titanium for the bulkheads?

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #934 on: September 08, 2016, 02:08:14 PM »
Just to balance the assumptions on your part, nothing more than that really.

What assumptions have I made?


What did they do, go back to using Titanium for the bulkheads?

I have no idea. I don't work for LM and I very much doubt they would release that kind of information.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Online Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14139
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #935 on: September 08, 2016, 02:19:28 PM »
That is an assumption on your part.


What delay? There was no delay in production or in training for the USMC. It had no impact on the timeline. The only thing that was put on hold until fixes were made was the stress testing itself, for obvious reasons. I hope you realize this was two and a half years ago and the problem was fixed the same year? I believe it cost the F-35B 50 lbs extra weight.

The wing cracking on the F-35C is a CURRENT problem that has NOT been fixed.   The F-35B will also fail in the future in different places as stress gets transferred to other areas as weaker ones are beefed up.   They've shaved it to the bone because it is too heavy to be of any use.   Despite their best efforts the B has suffered a weight gain of more than ten percent (I don't feel like figuring out the exact figure) since 2002.  The other variants have also experienced similar weight gains, a trend that is continuing at the expense of its already-limited performance.

Wake up.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:26:34 PM by Vraciu »
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted

Online Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14139
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #936 on: September 08, 2016, 02:29:24 PM »
I have no idea. I don't work for LM and I very much doubt they would release that kind of information.

You sure about that????
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #937 on: September 08, 2016, 02:32:11 PM »
What assumptions have I made?

That the official LM line is consistently the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #938 on: September 08, 2016, 02:45:52 PM »
That the official LM line is consistently the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

That's just another assumption on your part, and a pretty stupid one at that. I have no way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not, and they're certainly not telling the whole truth. Why would they. But they are the only people who actually knows the truth. They and the pilots and maintainers who work with the jet. I tend to believe in the opinions of the people whose lives will depend on this plane if and when they have to go to war.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Online Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14139
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #939 on: September 08, 2016, 06:04:48 PM »
That's just another assumption on your part, and a pretty stupid one at that. I have no way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not, and they're certainly not telling the whole truth. Why would they. But they are the only people who actually knows the truth. They and the pilots and maintainers who work with the jet. I tend to believe in the opinions of the people whose lives will depend on this plane if and when they have to go to war.

That worked for the Marines at Midway in their F2As didn't it?
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9889
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #940 on: September 08, 2016, 08:36:30 PM »
It was fixed two years ago. This is history we're arguing over. Yes the F-35 is designed for a 8000 flight hours service life, or approximately 30 - 50 years. The test aircraft had accumulated 9,480 hours when the cracks were discovered. On our F-16s we had to replace the wings at 4000 hours due to cracks.

"Equivalent flight time", not actual flight time. When some states "equivalent" like this my BS meter pegs out.

Quote
The reason for that is because the F-35B structural durability test article had already accumulated 9,480 hours of equivalent fight time when testing was stopped to discover the root cause of the problem.

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #941 on: September 09, 2016, 12:24:55 AM »
That's just another assumption on your part, and a pretty stupid one at that.

Reasonable assumptions based on available evidence, interpolating and extrapolating, especially working from an inconsistency can take one quite far. You should try it  :D Remember no one has all the facts. Especially those involved, ironically.


I tend to believe in the opinions of the people whose lives will depend on this plane if and when they have to go to war.

Have you any opinions from those who have flown the Marine's version? Because I notice you tend to flick between discussions of variants and the overall programme in a logically disingenuous manner when convenient.

Yes well, how do I say this while retaining some modicum of politeness? You do seem to almost have a disability when it comes to being critical of information from certain official sources. Perhaps only with military things. That's all I've seen. This is just an assumption from observing your posts. Over several related and lengthy threads. For years. Consistently.

Being involved in the programme also means they are all stakeholders. That ought to indicate some caution. The bulkhead issue is merely an example. I said there were two ways out of it and indeed they chose to add weight. This variant is approaching its limit and that doesn't tally with the everything going according to plan narrative. 'Basically by design'. No, not hardly. They're doing their best to solve problems which should've been avoided way upstream of where they are now with an enviable budget and facilities.

The reality is probably in the middle of the fanboi and paranoid extremes. All this forum hot air gets no one anywhere really. About as much ground gained on either side as the quietest week of the front line measuring contest in the Great War.







« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 12:26:57 AM by nrshida »
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3731
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #942 on: September 09, 2016, 01:49:03 AM »
I often think the same, regarding that last bit Shida.

I still am sticking to my original point made here years ago on this topic: until I see large numbers of F35s, as in squadrons or a detachment of one at least, perform at Red Flag/etc, taking on swarms of Red Air, flown by the best pilots in the world, simulating modern threats like the SU and various Chinese fighters as well as modern SAM/AA/AD threats...  Even if that means using F22s as the Chinese stealth analogues, and in that exercise we see the F35 succeed and win fights and accomplish mission goals with minimal loses, against Red Air that gets to reset and simulate massive enemy numbers, which WILL be faced in any war with China/Russia/near peer states/etc, the jury is out.

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #943 on: September 09, 2016, 06:36:31 AM »
Have you any opinions from those who have flown the Marine's version? Because I notice you tend to flick between discussions of variants and the overall programme in a logically disingenuous manner when convenient.

Of course. It's perhaps the most lauded version by those who fly it. Here's a couple of hits on youtube:



From your former country:





Yes well, how do I say this while retaining some modicum of politeness? You do seem to almost have a disability when it comes to being critical of information from certain official sources. Perhaps only with military things. That's all I've seen. This is just an assumption from observing your posts. Over several related and lengthy threads. For years. Consistently.

While I'm sure that is the impression I give off, it is not accurate. I many have a disability, as you put it, when it comes to being critical of information from soldiers, but that's because I've been one. I know what soldiers are like. If there is something we don't like about our gear or vehicles or whatever, we whine a lot. We whine to each other, to our families and friends. Sometimes even to the press. A good example is Serenity here who in several threads have whined about the F-35 even though he's never flown one and is still just a cadet pilot in the USN. Over in the O'Club he's whining about the T-45 he's flying now. The thing that bothers me about all the negative press the F-35 is getting is that even if 10% of it was true there should be a ****storm of whining from F-35 personnel. There isn't.


Reasonable assumptions based on available evidence, interpolating and extrapolating, especially working from an inconsistency can take one quite far. You should try it  :D Remember no one has all the facts. Especially those involved, ironically.

You know, governments are notoriously bad at keeping secrets; a reasonable assumption would be that there is no vast international conspiracy involving the governments and militaries of twelve different nations on four different continents. Thousands of people directly involved with the F-35, some willing to risk their lives in it. And they're all supposed to be lying and hiding the fact that the plane is a turd. And not a single individual steps out of line and whistle blows, not even anonymously. Not one.

A reasonable assumption would be that people like "Dolby" Hanche is telling the truth when they praise the F-35 and its capabilities. As officers and servicemen of their respective countries' armed forces their integrity, while not beyond reproach, is still something they have earned through their service and professionalism. If you want to call these people liars you had better be prepared to back that up with a lot more than "interpolating and extrapolating". Because if you do your own integrity is on the line, not just theirs.

"I would emphasize the term 'multirole' after experiencing this jet in many roles, and now also in a dogfight. The F-35 has a real bite! Those in doubt will be surprised when they finally meet this 'bomber'! - Morten Hanche. RNoAF F-35 pilot and 2,200-hour F-16 veteran.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 06:55:25 AM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Online Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14139
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #944 on: September 09, 2016, 08:27:49 AM »
Again.  People have their ORDERS regarding what to say about the T/A-35. See my multiple posts about the memo that was leaked on this subject. 

Whiners get passed over for promotion.  If you  think a successful military career is not dependent upon politics you're dreaming in technicolor. 
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted