Author Topic: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review  (Read 8635 times)

Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2016, 01:08:36 AM »
Good memory Gman!  :aok. Since the gun package mounted where Genie was carried, the most likely fight was going to be fighter vs fighter, instead of "Six" vs Russian bombers coming over the North Pole, i.e. shoot 'em in the face with the nuke.

The Six was designed as a single role air defense interceptor.  As such, it was very fast and could accelerate in a heart beat, and do it all at high altitude because of the big delta wing.  When loitering around at 300 knots or so and the need to go fast arouse, a slight unload and crack of the afterburner, it would quickly accelerate to the 400 to 500 knots range depending how much smash was desired.  On a DACT mission once, my afterburner refused to light off once we got into the fighting airspace.  There was no way I was going to pass up the opportunity to fight the evil F-15 horde that was waiting for us.  So, I stuck with my ops officer, continued to maneuver as a tactical two ship, and quickly learned I could accelerate to supersonic speed by unloading to less than one G and going to mil power.  I quit trying to light the burner because in normal ops it would produce a small "burner puff" which would give away the best intended hiding attempt.   All that being said, when it was time to step into the phone booth for a knife fight, the Six would produce one great "bat turn". And then it was time to unload, point nose down, and go full grunt with the burner and regain energy.  The six required a lot of ingenuity and surprise against the newer F-teen jets.  The bat turn pretty much had to be perfect to set up for a quick snap shot against a better turn sustaining fighter.  We were very happy to have the gun. It opened up a lot of options short of radiating everything in sight with the Genie.  But what an attention getter that would have been.  I was fortunate to have live fired three Genies (without the nuke warhead, of course).   That's a whole other fun story for another time.  The "Six" or "Iron Triangle" was a distinct pleasure to fly and always turned heads when it showed up on initial at 400 knots, or maybe just a little more.  It was truly the Lamborghini of its time.

Apologies for going of in the bar ditch with the thread.  Just wanted to answer Gman's question.  We now rejoin our regularly scheduled thread. Check six!  :salute

My jet during an air defense alert tour at Davis Monthan AFB, Az.



Oh by the way, Gman, when we flew cross country from Minot, ND to Tucson, it was a full AB climb to 39,000 feet, roll out on course abeam the departure end of the runway, cruise at 540 knots TAS until the external tanks burned out, and then up to 45,000 feet or higher for the remainder of the trip.  :D
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 01:12:37 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2016, 07:08:47 AM »
I quit trying to light the burner because in normal ops it would produce a small "burner puff" which would give away the best intended hiding attempt. 


You guys turned icons off for those fights?  Didn't anyone complain?

Great write-up, Puma, thanks.  Who won the fight with the F-15s?

- oldman

Offline Kanth

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2016, 08:18:53 AM »
Yep, great writeup  :aok
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2016, 09:17:49 AM »
Thanks for sharing your USAF memories with us Puma, <S>

regarding your mention of doing a "bat turn" in your F-106.......could that also be described as a instantaneous turn described like ----> "Most interceptors will be doing a high to low conversion which gives extra energy for the intercept.".... just curious..... we have had players talk about the term "bat turn" in this Help and Training Forum before, and iirc, there were some good discussions regarding it...

I'm guessing this was somewhere around late 70's/early 80's, regarding your "tour at Davis Monthan AFB, Az."......or am I way off

Thank You for sharing / Thank You for your Service!  :salute

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2016, 11:42:45 AM »

You guys turned icons off for those fights?  Didn't anyone complain?

Great write-up, Puma, thanks.  Who won the fight with the F-15s?

- oldman

Yeah, Oldman, we always had our icons turned :D off, especially against F-15s.  Going against Eagles was an obvious challenge if the prebriefed ROE was "guns and heaters".  If ROE was "all up", we would shoot them in the face with a couple of Genies and game over. We basically had to out sneak them the best we could, use our bat turn for a snap shot with the gun or lob a couple AIM-4s in their direction.  We called the AIM-4s "Hittiles" vs the common missiles description.  The AIM-4 fuze was on the fins about four feet from the nose.  The idea was to hit a Russian bomber, penetrate into the fuselage, make contact with one of the four fuzes, and go boom inside.  So, getting a a high PK (Percentage Kill) against a fighter was pretty sketchy.  That was the  reason AIM-4s were fired in pairs, the low PK.

At a Red Flag, we always played on the Red Air side with the USAF Agressors.  Since the Eagles frequently handed us our lunch after our first bat turn, my wingman and I decided to get creative.  We launched well ahead of the Blue Air strike force and hid at very low level using a ridge of mountains west of student gap to hide.   Right on cue, the Eagles showed up at medium altitude in two four ship Joe Bob Boxes.  The four ships were in trail of each other, NOT BELLY CHECKING, as they marched into the area. When we confirmed they were the only Eagles in the package, we stroked the burners and climbed from deep six of the trailing four ship with our radars in standby and IR domes up.  We Fox Twoed the two trailers, ducked under them, got the lead two, ducked under them and were getting shots on the trailers of the leading four ship before they realized there were foxes in the hen house.  You can imagine how aggressive they got with us from then on.  So, as the old fighter saying goes "Hamburger is hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in".

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 12:06:39 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2016, 11:56:04 AM »
Thanks for sharing your USAF memories with us Puma, <S>

regarding your mention of doing a "bat turn" in your F-106.......could that also be described as a instantaneous turn described like ----> "Most interceptors will be doing a high to low conversion which gives extra energy for the intercept.".... just curious..... we have had players talk about the term "bat turn" in this Help and Training Forum before, and iirc, there were some good discus'sions regarding it...

I'm guessing this was somewhere around late 70's/early 80's, regarding your "tour at Davis Monthan AFB, AZ."......or am I way off

Thank You for sharing / Thank You for your Service!  :salute

TC

Yes, TC, it was our best instantaneous turn.  Because of the huge delta wing, we would burn off a lot of energy which then  forced a nose low, full AB, extension to regain energy for another bat turn.  We couldn't maintain the turn rate that the Eagles were capable of. If we were doing pure intercept tactics against bombers we used head on, shoot em in the face Genie attacks or did stern conversions if a VID was required.  If the VID produced a hostile, the AIM-4s were typically used, or the gun when it came on board.



You have the time frame correct TC, I was back and forth between Minot and DM 78-81.

Always fun to answer questions and share experiences.  Thanks TC!   :salute
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 11:58:37 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2016, 12:05:48 PM »
Hey Puma, I wanted to ask you this before, and this thread reminded me - you had mentioned that in the F106 when you didn't have the Genie crowdpleaser missiles loaded, you usually had Aim4s, and that both missiles were very poor options (obviously with the nuclear warhead, haha) for visual range/close fights, and that the gun with the 600 rounds was very important because of this.

That being the case, I wondered if you practiced a lot of BFM/ACM and close range gun fights since the gun was the only reliable/sound option for the F106 if you had an enemy target in close.  If so, what was that like, can you tell me/us a bit about the F106 performance and capability in that arena.

I may have gotten a bit of track answering you question previously.  For many years, the Six community didn't have much formal BFM training. After all, it was an Air Defense Interceptor.  During my tour, BFM training was coming into play.  I absolutely loved the stuff and eventually became one of our squadron BFM instructors.  So, yes we did practice it a lot when it became a formal training program.   :salute



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