No icons for AH3

[jimson]

If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.

Wiley.

There were some who did just that when enemy icons were on in the AvA, but if you are so convinced that those who like a no icon game only do so to have an unfair advantage, they would only want invisible icons for their plane and not a level playing field for all wouldn't they?

[jimson]

I guess it depends on what form of "non-realistic" you prefer.
Oldman is a pilot, we have other pilots who like no icons, I have 50 something hours not including all the passenger hours I have in small planes.

At the real life distances that icons show up in the MA, I can tell it's a white plane, maybe a high wing. I can't ID make and model.

I have lost sight of planes against the ground and those weren't even camo or drab colors. I picked them up again because of motion.

Same thing in the game, albiet at closer distances.

It's just a different setting that some people enjoy.

[Rich46yo]

I remember WW2OL only had circles and they would turn red or green once you got close enough to them, "red" being enemy. It worked better I think and the pilot had to make his own decision if he was close enough to shoot. It was pretty easy actually. I would prefer this to the current icon system. Range distances is just over kill and clogs up the view.

[shift8]

If that were the case, you can do that right now today. The fact is people want other people to not be able to see them coming.

Wiley.

The only thing that is clear from this thread is what YOUR motives are. Its pretty clear that you and bustr think this is some kind of conspiracy to hurt older players. Which is completely asinine.


I made this request because I think it will make the game more realistic, which is my ONLY motive. Removing the icons over a certain range, say 1-2km for IFF and ID reasons, is completely reasonable.


IT will alter how the game plays, and IMO, in a good way. YES, you should be less likely to see a bandit coming in to bounce you. This is one of the many reasons the bulk of ww2 air combat was a bounce. The current condition in the MA makes it comically easy for people to maintain SA.

What you dont seem to get is that removing the 6k icons would ALSO improve the lot of people who have the sole interest in this game in "furballing." If you like to dogfight, you will ALSO be much harder to spot by stalking energy fighters.

The real problem of the Icons at 6km is the overabundance of SA. Everyone knows who is where and how far just be merely glancing out of their canopy. This HURTS fighting in general, by turning the combat into a doom conveyor belt. The fight is often times dictated more by which fighters showed up last to the fight rather than by tactics etc. While this would indeed be a factor IRL, the icons make this TOO much of a factor.

So if you are a TnB'r, it will mean you have a lesser chance to have your fight interrupted (unrealistically) by the 9000 other planes in the game that spotting you without any effort at all. If you are a BnZ'r, the same is true.

Note, I am not saying we dont need icons. the LOD even within 2km is not as good as IRL. You need somehting to compensate for contrast and resolution of a computer monitor vs the far superior capabilities of the human eye.

BUT the AH dot system (excluding the massive AH3 dot thing) is actually pretty good. Spotting planes dots within 6k is easy. With some effort, you can spot them out to 17k if you are looking hard enough. You can even spot planes on the deck from 20k if you know what you are doing.

LASTLY, cut the crap regarding my or anyone else's motives to wanting this feature. One of the reasons I play this game is BECAUSE of the older average age of this community. NOT in spite of it. Generally I find the AH community more inclined to teamwork and mature behavior. This is excluding the adolescent rubbish that happens on the 200 between fully grown men.

The only person who has an ulterior motive here is you. Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely,  realism be damned.

[bustr]

Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely,  realism be damned. 

Your presentation up to this was reasonable, once here you run into your prejudice about what outcomes should really rule this game versus Hitech keeping subscriptions. In this sandbox world Hitech has never forced anyone to be as dedicated as yourself for the fun they pay him to provide. This is why there is an AvA and Special Events arenas. If your more stringent realism were the norm that would keep subscriptions and grow them from Hitech's experience, then the MA would have been your utopia 15 years ago until today.

Being such a "realism" junky, why aren't you hip deep in DCS and even bothering with us apostates? You debate as being intelligent enough to know Hitech has chosen to present his game this way to allow the most fun for the largest number. If he was going to bow to your self appointed superior position, he would have dedicated AHIII's fidelity to your refined sensibilities. I guess by your scale he has chosen to make it just as pedestrian as AH2, and is the chief apostate and bottle washer for the average customer position of not being bothered to learn your standards versus paying for mindless fun.

Some time back players wanted DCS competitive realism with engine management. Hitech's take on it reflects many of the devices he has chosen to make the game less realistic with from your point of view.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I reject your premiss that it would be more appealing to pilots.

I have come to learn that real pilots tend to branch into 2 categories.

1. System management pilots.
This group of pilots love to have the latest avionics, like to fly cross country. But have never been upside down in an airplane.

2. Stick and rudder pilots.
These pilots love to fly doing nothing but looking out the window. They are interested in perfection of flying not of managing the aircraft. These are the type of pilots who love aerobatics, and also would be interested in learning ACM.

Obviously these are generalizations and there is some cross over. But I am always surprised at the number of pilots who have never been up side down and fall into the first category.

The point of this is that the same thing tends to happen in a flight sim, Aces High is aimed at the stick and rudder guys. It is a very detailed simulation in what it tries to accomplish. That being, giving you the same feel as the real plane. But navigation and engine start procedures are not something that it aims to simulate.These type of items would detract instead of add to normal game play.

HiTech
-----------------------------------------------------

Here is an interesting exchange about realism and icons from past.

-----------------------------------------------------


Hiya HiTech, welcome to the thread. Care to enlighten us if we'll be seeing any more optional "realism features" like I suggested above?  Or perhaps a modified icon system?

I still think it's a shame that the blind bounce has gone the way of the dodo bird in AH. With the widespread use of voice communications in AH, is it really neccessary to retain the current neon icons?  Between the icons, the check six feature,  the voice comms and the direct six view... chances of bouncing a foe unseen is next to impossible in this day and age.

****

No chance banana. And the myth  you create that icons prevent sudden bounces is incorect. People still foreget to look back.

HiTech

-------------------------------------------------------

A more recent answer about icons in general.

-------------------------------------------------------

You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.

1. No icons does not mean more realism.
   It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.

2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
   The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?

   Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)

3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.

4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
   I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.

HiTech

----------------------------------------------------

Search would have answered many of your arguments......

-----------------------------------------------------

    My concern and which HiTech has been addressing on this particular thread is what might be done, if anything, about visual distance. IF you could see as far as the normal individual in a cockpit of a plane could see in real life it would open up more possibilities as I mentioned above

Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items  like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hitech has a lot invested in his reasons for icons....

-----------------------------------------------------------

I look at XXXXXX's icons, and can not guess what they meen. There for lots of other people would have the very same problem.

You might want to discuss what you wish out of icon system, not how to implement it first.

Item to discuss first,
Do you wish range info. If so how detailed.
Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info.

Next think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing?

Also think about how well a new person to AH will understand the info. Simple thing like what range should I shoot at become a problem.

If no range information is given is it just harder or is it more realisitic.

Whats the next thing that has to be written that people will be asking for. I would guess the next thing people would be asking for is a range estimator circles.

The one thing I have been considering is adding a + or - on the range once inside of 1k.

HiTech

------------------------------------------------------

The grand daddy of them all...............

------------------------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech
 

[shift8]

Your presentation up to this was reasonable, once here you run into your prejudice about what outcomes should really rule this game versus Hitech keeping subscriptions. In this sandbox world Hitech has never forced anyone to be as dedicated as yourself for the fun they pay him to provide. This is why there is an AvA and Special Events arenas. If your more stringent realism were the norm that would keep subscriptions and grow them from Hitech's experience, then the MA would have been your utopia 15 years ago until today.

Being such a "realism" junky, why aren't you hip deep in DCS and even bothering with us apostates? You debate as being intelligent enough to know Hitech has chosen to present his game this way to allow the most fun for the largest number. If he was going to bow to your self appointed superior position, he would have dedicated AHIII's fidelity to your refined sensibilities. I guess by your scale he has chosen to make it just as pedestrian as AH2, and is the chief apostate and bottle washer for the average customer position of not being bothered to learn your standards versus paying for mindless fun.

Some time back players wanted DCS competitive realism with engine management. Hitech's take on it reflects many of the devices he has chosen to make the game less realistic with from your point of view.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I reject your premiss that it would be more appealing to pilots.

I have come to learn that real pilots tend to branch into 2 categories.

1. System management pilots.
This group of pilots love to have the latest avionics, like to fly cross country. But have never been upside down in an airplane.

2. Stick and rudder pilots.
These pilots love to fly doing nothing but looking out the window. They are interested in perfection of flying not of managing the aircraft. These are the type of pilots who love aerobatics, and also would be interested in learning ACM.

Obviously these are generalizations and there is some cross over. But I am always surprised at the number of pilots who have never been up side down and fall into the first category.

The point of this is that the same thing tends to happen in a flight sim, Aces High is aimed at the stick and rudder guys. It is a very detailed simulation in what it tries to accomplish. That being, giving you the same feel as the real plane. But navigation and engine start procedures are not something that it aims to simulate.These type of items would detract instead of add to normal game play.

HiTech
-----------------------------------------------------

Here is an interesting exchange about realism and icons from past.

-----------------------------------------------------


Hiya HiTech, welcome to the thread. Care to enlighten us if we'll be seeing any more optional "realism features" like I suggested above?  Or perhaps a modified icon system?

I still think it's a shame that the blind bounce has gone the way of the dodo bird in AH. With the widespread use of voice communications in AH, is it really neccessary to retain the current neon icons?  Between the icons, the check six feature,  the voice comms and the direct six view... chances of bouncing a foe unseen is next to impossible in this day and age.

****

No chance banana. And the myth  you create that icons prevent sudden bounces is incorect. People still foreget to look back.

HiTech

-------------------------------------------------------

A more recent answer about icons in general.

-------------------------------------------------------

You are making many false statements and many wrong assumptions.

1. No icons does not mean more realism.
   It would make some thing more, a lot of other things less realistic.

2. No icons does not make the game more difficult.
   The difficulty in the game lies in killing some one while they are trying to kill you. It is the other person that creates the difficulty. Turning icons off doesn't change that fact, it merely shifts some of the difficulty to a different skill. So then the question becomes is it more fun using that skill then the way the game is currently set up?

   Unintended consequences. What is the net effect, I.E. if it changes the way everyone flies, how will that net effect everyone enjoyment. (similar to the principle if you make living more important it cause everyone to spend a lot more time running and chasing vs fighting)

3. We already have an arena where players try to set it up with things such as you are suggesting.

4. You believe time played has an effect on the validity of your wish.
   I mostly see the validity of wishes for "More Realism" is inversely proportional to the length of time played.

HiTech

----------------------------------------------------

Search would have answered many of your arguments......

-----------------------------------------------------


Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items  like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hitech has a lot invested in his reasons for icons....

-----------------------------------------------------------

I look at XXXXXX's icons, and can not guess what they meen. There for lots of other people would have the very same problem.

You might want to discuss what you wish out of icon system, not how to implement it first.

Item to discuss first,
Do you wish range info. If so how detailed.
Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info.

Next think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing?

Also think about how well a new person to AH will understand the info. Simple thing like what range should I shoot at become a problem.

If no range information is given is it just harder or is it more realisitic.

Whats the next thing that has to be written that people will be asking for. I would guess the next thing people would be asking for is a range estimator circles.

The one thing I have been considering is adding a + or - on the range once inside of 1k.

HiTech

------------------------------------------------------

The grand daddy of them all...............

------------------------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech
 

Yeah the reverse sarcasm argument is rather silly imo. There is realism that affects combat and realism that does not. Icons affect combat. Making me wait 10min to start or letting me have auto pilot to trim the plane for a climb I could also manually do does not change the fighting.

The realism factors that matter are the ones the proportionally alter the metrics by which an aircraft is measured. I agree with HiTech entirely that certain things are needed to bring the game closer to IRL, such as zooming. But just like in those examples, mechanics such as those need to be introduced to IMPROVE realism and compensate for computer issues. Not for the lols of it. Its unreasonable to think that a person cannot make arguments in favor of realism. This in in fact the self-professed reason HiTech allows for Zoom, and in certain conditions even icons. It is also the reason he has even modeled the game as a sim at all, and not some arcade game like War Thunder. It is also the reason we have scaled fuel consumption, so that long range planes can have reletive usefulness without needing 6 hour missions. It is also the reason we have stalling.....or compression....or flight modeling in general.

So yes. The realism argument is perfectly valid.

If all you wanted was gameplay, there really isnt much a reason to bother making a sim. HiTech has done a excellent job with the modeling in this game. Seems to me the most consistent thing to do would be have icons or lack of icons to match.

I also dont care about anyone's accessibility to the game if that interferes with realism. I dont care if you cant afford a better monitor or gpu or whatever. Trying to make the game for those people is an exercise in futility, and will solve nothing while reducing realism.

And lastly on DCS: That game is garbage. I dont care about being able to move knobs and do complex starts. Those things are nice, but I care more about relative aircraft performance. This is something AH does a far better job of. DCS's flight models are all over the place when it comes to their matching historical documentation. And DCS's vision system is ridiculous in the extreme. You easily lose planes outside of a mile even against the background of the sky. To that end, Ill take HiTech's Icons over the extreme lunacy of ED's vision system.

IMO Aces High does the best job for flight sims in general. I only want to see it get better, and I think removing the icons will do precisely that.

And lastly Bustr: I dont want NO icons. I want less Icons. My original post stated at 1000m or less, but I have since then refined this to as far out to 2km. This is because I AGREE with HiTech completely with many of the points you  quoted above. Removing the icons entirely would make some things less realistic, others more. And example would be contrast, since IRL you can see colors much more defined. Withing 2km it makes sense to have something ti compensate for that. There are other reasons as well. What I am mainly against is how far out the icons are. IMO its excessive. It doesn't completely hinder the blind bounce but it does excessively alter it. And more importantly, the long range icons increase long range SA too much. A mere glace out your window tells you how many enemies and friendlies there are, if they are getting closer, and what type of plane. This allows for macro planning to a ludicrous scale. It also turns fights into meat grinders where there is a constant flow a new planes into fights at a unrealistic pace.

[Wiley]

Which is far more realistic than the neon sign icon.  And it leads to more realistic tactics as well.

No icons isn't for everyone, or even for most people, I think everyone agrees on that, but ascribing bad motives to no-icon proponents is low.

- oldman

Jimson stated some people don't like the icon to preserve their immersion. I pointed out he can do that today. If he already has the power to control his immersion breaking icon the only reason to push for it to be an arena setting is so that it will affect other peoples' game play as well. Make sense?

Wiley.

[Wiley]

There were some who did just that when enemy icons were on in the AvA, but if you are so convinced that those who like a no icon game only do so to have an unfair advantage, they would only want invisible icons for their plane and not a level playing field for all wouldn't they?

It's one of two things.  Either they feel that their settings/setup/eyesight allows them to see well enough that it's not a disadvantage to them, or they have come to the conclusion that the disadvantage they put themselves at is fun, as long as other people have the same disadvantage.

Wiley.

[jimson]

It's one of two things.  Either they feel that their settings/setup/eyesight allows them to see well enough that it's not a disadvantage to them, or they have come to the conclusion that the disadvantage they put themselves at is fun, as long as other people have the same disadvantage.

Wiley.

I'll take the second one then.

[Wiley]

The only thing that is clear from this thread is what YOUR motives are. Its pretty clear that you and bustr think this is some kind of conspiracy to hurt older players. Which is completely asinine.

No, it's not a conspiracy against older players.  It is a quest to make eyesight, hardware choice, and monitor and video configuration the single most important aspect of the game.  It may not be a motivation, but it will be a side effect of whatever motivations you do have.

I made this request because I think it will make the game more realistic, which is my ONLY motive. Removing the icons over a certain range, say 1-2km for IFF and ID reasons, is completely reasonable.

Realistic for the guy with an HTC Vive, or realistic for the guy playing on a 17 inch 720p monitor?  Or is it realistic for the guy playing on a 4k monitor where his dots disappear at range?

IT will alter how the game plays, and IMO, in a good way. YES, you should be less likely to see a bandit coming in to bounce you. This is one of the many reasons the bulk of ww2 air combat was a bounce. The current condition in the MA makes it comically easy for people to maintain SA.

What you dont seem to get is that removing the 6k icons would ALSO improve the lot of people who have the sole interest in this game in "furballing." If you like to dogfight, you will ALSO be much harder to spot by stalking energy fighters.

I have been playing low icon scenarios for around 9 years.  I understand how they work just fine thanks.

The real problem of the Icons at 6km is the overabundance of SA. Everyone knows who is where and how far just be merely glancing out of their canopy. This HURTS fighting in general, by turning the combat into a doom conveyor belt. The fight is often times dictated more by which fighters showed up last to the fight rather than by tactics etc. While this would indeed be a factor IRL, the icons make this TOO much of a factor.

So if you are a TnB'r, it will mean you have a lesser chance to have your fight interrupted (unrealistically) by the 9000 other planes in the game that spotting you without any effort at all. If you are a BnZ'r, the same is true.

No, the real problem of no 6k icons is, some guys can see the dot at that distance, some guys can't.  This gives the guys that can see them an advantage over the guy that can't.  Eyesight and hardware setup should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.

Note, I am not saying we dont need icons. the LOD even within 2km is not as good as IRL. You need somehting to compensate for contrast and resolution of a computer monitor vs the far superior capabilities of the human eye.

BUT the AH dot system (excluding the massive AH3 dot thing) is actually pretty good. Spotting planes dots within 6k is easy. With some effort, you can spot them out to 17k if you are looking hard enough. You can even spot planes on the deck from 20k if you know what you are doing.

LASTLY, cut the crap regarding my or anyone else's motives to wanting this feature. One of the reasons I play this game is BECAUSE of the older average age of this community. NOT in spite of it. Generally I find the AH community more inclined to teamwork and mature behavior. This is excluding the adolescent rubbish that happens on the 200 between fully grown men.

The only person who has an ulterior motive here is you. Since it has been pretty directly stated that you and others want the icons to aid health conditions or your lack of spotting procedure, or because you cant be bothered to learn how to scan routinely,  realism be damned.

Oh, ok.  I thought what I was stating was that I don't believe your hardware and eyesight should be the determining factor between visible enemy and invisible enemy.

EDIT:  One other thing, how does it achieve this "realism" if not by making the plane out of icon range less visible to the enemy?  In other words, if you're saying it's not that you don't want the enemy to see you, then how is it that the icon not being there affects gameplay?

Wiley.

[Wiley]

I'll take the second one then.

In that case, it's not about your immersion, it's about the other guy not having an advantage over you.  Long as you admit it and don't use immersion as a talking point on why no icons is awesome, it makes your case stronger.

Wiley.

[jimson]

In that case, it's not about your immersion, it's about the other guy not having an advantage over you.  Long as you admit it and don't use immersion as a talking point on why no icons is awesome, it makes your case stronger.

Wiley.

It's still about immersion with a level playing field.

Anyway, in the last version of the beta I DL'd, turning enemy icons off didn't work, so if that holds, I'm sure the AvA will fill up every night LOL.

[Zoney]

There will be icons. 

Period.

You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.

If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.

If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.

[shift8]

There will be icons. 

Period.

You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.

If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.

If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.

'
It says a alot more about someone when they think the game should be tailored to their personal problems.

[jimson]

There will be icons. 

Period.

You can argue all you want about immersion, it's the same lame "holier than thou" argument that has gone on infinitum.

If you don't like it, turn your Icons off, immerse yourself in unrealistic visibility all you want.

If you "just don't care" about those that need them to see, well I guess that's just the kind of person you are, it says a lot.

There should always be icons in the any plane for any side arena. For side specific arenas, I sort of wish the icons could be set in reverse, to disappear within 800 yards or something.