Author Topic: JUST DO IT  (Read 8076 times)

Offline RagingPineapple

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2016, 12:20:34 PM »
The link points to what DCS uses as abbreviated terms when describing their take on a flight model.

DATA is the numbers, of torque, horsepower at different setting of the manifold, forces applied to the stick an rudder to counteract the forces supplied by the engine at those settings and so on.

     I'm sure I'd have to message Eagle Dynamics directly to get that info, and it would probably be a post about 50 forum pages long for one airplane, considering they're attention to detail even covers the change of CG from the landing gear extending/retracting. I am not fetching that info for you. My effort for you guys ends here.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:22:16 PM by RagingPineapple »

Offline Vudak

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2016, 12:29:08 PM »
     I'm sure I'd have to message Eagle Dynamics directly to get that info, and it would probably be a post about 50 forum pages long for one airplane, considering they're attention to detail even covers the change of CG from the landing gear extending/retracting. I am not fetching that info for you. My effort for you guys ends here.
So, in short, you're taking their word for it.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2016, 12:41:35 PM »
I bet there's a forum out there where someone just posted "Watch how I reel them in over there at Aces High"  :noid
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Offline puller

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2016, 12:46:20 PM »
     Here is a description on how DCS builds their flight models, and the extensive detail they go through to do it: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/505/


Digitalcombatsimulator.com

Hmm DCS

     So like this link to a P-51 checklist that backs what I was saying about take off power settings? http://www.aerofiles.com/checklist-p51.html

     And you wont even take the time to read the first link I posted. That right there reinforces my "brick wall" theory.

     Also, adding "REAL" in front of "DATA" still does not clarify what Hitech means by "DATA."

Real Data as in real data


Posting DCS marketing descriptions is not exactly posting flight model data about real aircraft, and then checking performance numbers against or real aircraft vs either flight model.

Data would be things like X static thrust at 40 inches MP. Or Creates X yaw torque at y power settings. Or with no rudder input a plane X creates a yaw velocity Y at Z power settings.

You know things that can actually be measured ant then compared flight molding.

Or simple testing DCS and real world on these type of charts.

HiTech


As in real data  :aok
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Offline Invictus84

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2016, 02:12:59 PM »
I bet there's a forum out there where someone just posted "Watch how I reel them in over there at Aces High"  :noid

If there is, it was not my doing.  But I should have known bringing up anything outside AH would probably result in what it has resulted into.

Look, the whole FM arguement misses the point entirely.  Even if you guys are right, and I am not saying you are, it is the perceptions of those outside the game you need to change.  Right now, that perception appears to be that AH is WT with dated graphics. That is based on conversations I have had, so I am not claiming it to be definative.

Now do I personally agree with this perception?  To be honest, no.  But then again I also do not agree with the perception from the majority here that AH is the best combat flight sim.  I like it a lot. I play it and I have fun.  Do I feel there are gamey aspects to it? Yes, but there are gamey aspects to every sim I've ever tried.  It has it's positives and negatives, just like everything else.  But I do agree with many who put it in the "light" sim catagory, which isn't a bad thing.

Offline Vudak

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2016, 03:59:53 PM »
Invictus, I haven't taken any issues with anything you've done.  I do appreciate your efforts streaming this game and trying to get us some new customers.  I also agree that "sim light" isn't a bad thing.  :salute

You do raise some interesting points about the perspectives and all, but here's mine...  I think some of the DCS crowd are taking for granted that just because something is more complicated, it is also more accurate.  In one sense, I guess they're indisputably correct - In real life, you have to do certain things/steps to take off, fly, and land an aircraft, and DCS makes you do more of those things than Aces High does.  So I do concede that the simulation of the actual "process" is more accurate.

What I would like to throw out there, however, is that doesn't necessarily mean the flight model is more accurate than AH.  To simplify, let's just say DCS models 30 steps/actions, and AH only models 10.  All this really proves is that DCS is more complicated.  This in and of itself is not evidence that DCS has accurately modeled those 30 steps and AH has not.  AH might be hitting their 10 things at 90% whereas DCS could be hitting their 30 at 60% (or vice versa).  Unless actual data is supplied side by side, we really don't know.  HiTech provided at least his charts - the DCS crowd provided a press release without any data attached.

I think that is what people were driving at when they asked RagingPineapple for data.  His response was that he'd have to ask the developers for it (meaning he didn't have it), that it'd "probably" be 50 pages (meaning he has no idea how long it is), and then he threw in "they're [sic] attention to detail even covers the change of CG from the landing gear extending/retracting", which is basically him just defaulting to "DCS models 30 things so it is therefore more accurate" which I feel doesn't make sense and is a fallacy.  It might be true, but he really has no idea and is simply taking DCS's developer's word for it.

Anyway, this is interesting, but also a little stupid to argue about if you ask me as DCS and AH might as well be on different planets with what they offer.  I don't see why someone couldn't enjoy both games given they offer completely different challenges and opportunities for fun.  If you're serious about helping us increase our numbers, I'd suggest maybe streaming some FSO's or the upcoming scenario as those seem to be things that AH has the edge in over some of its competitors (FSO had about 170 players or more on Friday - some past scenarios have had 500+ - I'm personally more interested in that kind of immersion than the minutia immersion, but YMMV).

S!
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Offline FESS67

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2016, 04:19:12 PM »
Since my name was brought up  :o  Yes, I have been exploring the options out there and so far here is my synopsis:

War Thunder

I have invested very little time in this so far.  I tried getting into the full realism (cannot remember the true name) arena but no-one else was and I just sat there with a timer waiting to join a fight.  I tried the next level down, which I hated.  and which is why I have not been tempted to invest more time in it. I might try it again but I will have to be bored to tears to do that and that is not a good base from which to play a game.

BoS

I have started to explore this game.  So far I am really looking to set up all the controls properly and am playing some of the missions against AI.  There is no doubt the graphics are better than AHIII.  The physics of the flight model is up for debate in terms of my preference for a game but this may be down to my controller set up.  I experience a lot of initial lag in controller input and then of course I am over correcting causing a lot of bounce and a distinct lack of smooth flying.  The landings are much more difficult than in either AHIII or DCS but I put this down to the bounce.

My gunnery in this game is much worse than in AHII but on a par with AHIII.  A combination of the input bounce and lack of visual feedback on hits.  From videos I have seen on this game the input bounce is not limited to me and it is a big part of the reason I have not invested more time in the game.

DCS

I have had this game for some time now.  It flies very nicely.  Inputs are smooth and the terrain detail is very nice.  Enemy planes are small and very hard to see, which is realistic.  I did a fighter combat experience a few years ago and even after an offset merge just finding the enemy was a major part of the fight.

Graphics are very nice.  Gunnery is tricky, once again with the visuals being very similar to AHIII with no massive sprites to confirm you are on target.  I like the fact you can change the gunsight size, that is more realistic, but in terms of gameplay it adds little.  The biggest issue I have with DCS is the engine management part of the game.  I have tried the tutorials several times and always get stuck on the engine start tutorial as I simply cannot find a way to use the trim controls and primer buttons in the cockpit.  I use a macro to start the engine and that is how I get through the game.

This game flies so well, just I am not convinced I want to do all the engine management stuff.  Plus, a large portion of the community like more modern jets.  I have no interest for anything other than ww2.

AHIII

Despite some of you thinking I am a troll or out to promote other games, nothing could be further from the truth.  I am however a realist and not against speaking my mind.

AH is probably the best WW2 based fighter game out there.  It allows us to strap into a cockpit and within a very short period of time we are up and playing.  It is rather like chess, relatively easy to learn but with so many levels of mastery there is always someone better out there.  This is good for all level of players.

I never minded the AHII graphics and I am not convinced the AHIII change is much of a leap forward when compared to other games.  But I agree it needed to happen.  There are some really nice touches, like the clouds we now get to fly through and there are some horrors, like the light misty disc above our heads.  AHIII is still a work in progress and I am sure many of the glitches will be fixed.

If there was a fault you would have to look at planes such as the Brewster.  If they were that good in real life then I am sure they would have featured as killers in the war.  In addition to that I see planes flip and flop around in impossible fashion when people are 'stick stirring'.  We all know it and see it.  I have not seen that in other games and I would say that has to be a FM 'thing'

The biggest issue is IMO with the player base and the propensity to avoid combat.  That is 95% of the reason I have been actively seeking out other games.  And there is little Hitech can do to force people to fight.  That has to come from within the community.  I know I ran from Fugitive the other day as I had expended all my ammo, otherwise I would have stayed and killed him :p

Thanks for listening.





Offline Coalcat1

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2016, 05:53:15 PM »
When Eagle Dynamics was working on perfecting the FW190D9 model, they consulted Erich Brunotte, a Luftwaffe pilot who flew the 190D9 in combat. He tells them what they got right and what they need to fix after flying their early model of the 190.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKs9VLUcCg
Has HTC ever contacted pilots who flew the real counterparts the ones depicted in AH?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 05:55:42 PM by Coalcat1 »

Offline Vudak

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2016, 06:13:18 PM »
When Eagle Dynamics was working on perfecting the FW190D9 model, they consulted Erich Brunotte, a Luftwaffe pilot who flew the 190D9 in combat. He tells them what they got right and what they need to fix after flying their early model of the 190.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKs9VLUcCg
Has HTC ever contacted pilots who flew the real counterparts the ones depicted in AH?
Cool as that is, it's not evidence that they've got the flight model right.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:14:53 PM by Vudak »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2016, 06:24:27 PM »
And you were as incorrect then as you are now, for all the same reasons I stated before but will restate for you now:  Those communities don't need to add AH players to the ranks, quite the opposite.  The question is can AH do so. I suppose time will tell. 

Look, this is really a simple concept:  Aces High is not a simulator, or is at best a "light" simulator in the same catagory of War Thunder Sim Battles (not the Arcade or Realistic battles, and certainly not crappy World of Warplanes).  We can get into endless debates about this, but by the developers own admission AH isnt meant to be a hard core simulator.  If that insults some here I suggest you take a breath and deal with reality.  The thing that has struck me since I started streaming AH is that the majority of comments I've received so far from players of sims like BoS or Clod is that they do think AH looks like fun but in general don't see the value in subscribing.  It is almost a direct parallel to the comments from many AH players towards sims like DCS or BoS.  I suppose if you haven't played both you simply can't appreciate those differences and the attraction of both sides.

But to get back to the original point of my first post, AH may not be cutting edge but it NEEDS AH III to have any chance of getting new blood.  While I simpathize with some players not having a PC up to playing the new version I cannot understand why, after several years of development, the change over seems to be viewed with surprise.

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Offline Zoney

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2016, 06:36:11 PM »
When Eagle Dynamics was working on perfecting the FW190D9 model, they consulted Erich Brunotte, a Luftwaffe pilot who flew the 190D9 in combat. He tells them what they got right and what they need to fix after flying their early model of the 190.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKs9VLUcCg
Has HTC ever contacted pilots who flew the real counterparts the ones depicted in AH?

That was very cool.  Luckily I speak German and could understand what he was actually saying because that was not what they were subtitling.

Let me give you an example, at the 8:03 mark he actually says:
"Are you kidding me?  This is a joke right?  This isn't even close.  Who is writing the code for this, it's complete crap"

Then at 9:16:
"I hope you idiots haven't spent your kids college funds developing this crap, actually I hope you don't have kids so you don't pass off those defective genes"

At 11:21:
"I know you brought me to help so let me help, go to McDonalds and ask for a job"

at 14:44:
"Enough already.  Have you guys ever played Aces High?  That's where I play because they have it spot on.  No mindless pushing of buttons for the sake of pushing buttons just so you can call it engine management, perfectly realistic flight characteristics and a community that loves to have fun, especially during the FSO's and Special Events.  You should try it because you're wasting your time here."

At 16:51:
"Seriously, this sucks worse than your wife's burnt lunch vegetables."
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2016, 06:42:39 PM »
 :rofl
 :airplane:
Easy in-game again.
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Offline puller

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2016, 06:47:13 PM »
I'm just as right as the first day I said it. Now others are realizing what your true colors are.

This...

And I got rule #'ed for it... :noid
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Offline Invictus84

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2016, 06:59:38 PM »
This...

And I got rule #'ed for it... :noid

I'm just as right as the first day I said it. Now others are realizing what your true colors are.

You both really are quite tedious.  Please feel free to wander off now.  Thanks so much.

Invictus, I haven't taken any issues with anything you've done.  I do appreciate your efforts streaming this game and trying to get us some new customers.  I also agree that "sim light" isn't a bad thing.  :salute

You do raise some interesting points about the perspectives and all, but here's mine...  I think some of the DCS crowd are taking for granted that just because something is more complicated, it is also more accurate.  In one sense, I guess they're indisputably correct - In real life, you have to do certain things/steps to take off, fly, and land an aircraft, and DCS makes you do more of those things than Aces High does.  So I do concede that the simulation of the actual "process" is more accurate.

What I would like to throw out there, however, is that doesn't necessarily mean the flight model is more accurate than AH.  To simplify, let's just say DCS models 30 steps/actions, and AH only models 10.  All this really proves is that DCS is more complicated.  This in and of itself is not evidence that DCS has accurately modeled those 30 steps and AH has not.  AH might be hitting their 10 things at 90% whereas DCS could be hitting their 30 at 60% (or vice versa).  Unless actual data is supplied side by side, we really don't know.  HiTech provided at least his charts - the DCS crowd provided a press release without any data attached.

I think that is what people were driving at when they asked RagingPineapple for data.  His response was that he'd have to ask the developers for it (meaning he didn't have it), that it'd "probably" be 50 pages (meaning he has no idea how long it is), and then he threw in "they're [sic] attention to detail even covers the change of CG from the landing gear extending/retracting", which is basically him just defaulting to "DCS models 30 things so it is therefore more accurate" which I feel doesn't make sense and is a fallacy.  It might be true, but he really has no idea and is simply taking DCS's developer's word for it.

Anyway, this is interesting, but also a little stupid to argue about if you ask me as DCS and AH might as well be on different planets with what they offer.  I don't see why someone couldn't enjoy both games given they offer completely different challenges and opportunities for fun.  If you're serious about helping us increase our numbers, I'd suggest maybe streaming some FSO's or the upcoming scenario as those seem to be things that AH has the edge in over some of its competitors (FSO had about 170 players or more on Friday - some past scenarios have had 500+ - I'm personally more interested in that kind of immersion than the minutia immersion, but YMMV).

S!

I appreciate your post, but I don't believe I've made any claims about DCS's flight model.  I have barely mentioned DCS in fact.  My points of comparison have been CLoD and BoS.  The follow on posts discussed DCS.  I rarely fly DCS myself, as I prefer the simpler (but still complex) CLoD or BoS style of gameplay.

I agree with your assessment of being able to enjoy both games, primarily because I do and have said as much.  This, in the minds of some, equates to some form of heresy.  Luckily I don't much give a damn about their uninformed opinions, much of which I think is fueled by ego : Big Fish / Small Pond. 

I plan to stream an FSO event in the future. I think it will help.  o7
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 07:01:16 PM by Invictus84 »

Offline Vudak

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Re: JUST DO IT
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2016, 07:01:00 PM »
Sorry I lost track of who posted what about what game.
Vudak
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