Author Topic: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves  (Read 45693 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2016, 05:49:33 PM »
Meanwhile, back at the OP ...

I have perceived a more rapid snap roll in several aircraft in AH3 as compared to AH2.

Maybe 'snap roll' is the wrong term. It is in a turn (accelerated stall) with a significant, sudden, uncontrolled change in attitude.

I have no film. As I said, it is a perception. I have been trying to be smoother on increasing elevator inputs, which appears to be lessening the problem.  :joystick:

In the real world, the low level flopping airshow planes will eventually, inevitably crash. It is a reckless maneuver.  :old:

Did you notice the stall buffet sound is different? Its likely you're stalling one wing and that's snap rolling you.

no AHF sorry, but here is my view of the wiggle...


Looks like a continuous snap roll with reversed directions.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 06:02:07 PM by FLS »

Offline hitech

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2016, 08:51:24 PM »
Meanwhile, back at the OP ...

I have perceived a more rapid snap roll in several aircraft in AH3 as compared to AH2.

Maybe 'snap roll' is the wrong term. It is in a turn (accelerated stall) with a significant, sudden, uncontrolled change in attitude.

I have no film. As I said, it is a perception. I have been trying to be smoother on increasing elevator inputs, which appears to be lessening the problem.  :joystick:

In the real world, the low level flopping airshow planes will eventually, inevitably crash. It is a reckless maneuver.  :old:

How your plane snap rolls or how other planes snap roll?

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2016, 08:56:00 PM »
Did you notice the stall buffet sound is different? Its likely you're stalling one wing and that's snap rolling you.

Looks like a continuous snap roll with reversed directions.

I haven't noticed any sound other than the horn.

How your plane snap rolls or how other planes snap roll?

My plane.

Pardon the lack of hard data, it just feels like the departure from control is more abrupt.

In both AH2 and AH3, I have always had stall limiter off.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2016, 09:54:48 PM »
I haven't noticed any sound other than the horn.
...

The new stall buffet sounds like shaking a sheet of metal.

Offline Dobs

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2016, 11:40:04 PM »
So if that plane is truly tumbling...its not losing airspeed as you can see in the last bit of the video where he is low and inside Vulcan's turn.

I watched one do that at tree top level the other day, and pulled up thinking he was dead...nope...flew right up my tail pipe...cuz tumbling increases speed it appears.

Recovery should be damn significantly nose low as the heavy bit gets claimed by gravity....and have to build flying airspeed back.

Burying the stick in a back corner will depart the aircraft in a hurry.  I think the associated E bleed is not high enough so people are using it as stop and GO technique.
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2016, 12:33:27 AM »
no AHF sorry, but here is my view of the wiggle...




This is very similar to what I am talking about, the plane goes crackers briefly.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2016, 12:53:34 AM »
So if that plane is truly tumbling...its not losing airspeed as you can see in the last bit of the video where he is low and inside Vulcan's turn.

I watched one do that at tree top level the other day, and pulled up thinking he was dead...nope...flew right up my tail pipe...cuz tumbling increases speed it appears.

Recovery should be damn significantly nose low as the heavy bit gets claimed by gravity....and have to build flying airspeed back.

Burying the stick in a back corner will depart the aircraft in a hurry.  I think the associated E bleed is not high enough so people are using it as stop and GO technique.

He is clearly slowing down and losing altitude while snap rolling. If you can explain what his recovery speed should be that would be great. Some film of you tumbling and going faster would be good too.    :aok

Offline ImADot

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #112 on: September 24, 2016, 08:33:11 AM »
Some film of you tumbling and going faster would be good too.    :aok

The AHFilm file, not a YouTube video.  :aok
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Offline Invictus84

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #113 on: September 24, 2016, 10:45:56 AM »
This is very similar to what I am talking about, the plane goes crackers briefly.

I've seen the same behavior occastionally, but it has been very rare. 

Offline Dawger

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2016, 12:33:05 PM »
By definition a stalled airfoil is in its very highest induced drag state the moment it begins flying again since it is at maximum AOA at that moment.

Form drag during a "tumble" is tremendous. The stress on the airframe is tremendous.

While aerobatic tumbles look like chaos they are actually carefully planned and executed maneuvers.
 
In modern aerobatic aircraft with extremely high thrust to weight and structure purpose built for the extreme stress of these maneuvers, Lomcovak's and other tumbles are routinely performed. However, they ALL require a brief period of extreme nose low attitude to regain flying speed.

The forces involved in this things wreaks havoc on aircraft structure, with engine mounts most susceptible to failure.

Doing these things in WWII era aircraft is a fantasy that would rip the engines off these aircraft if attempted.

The ability to recover from one without reducing the pitch 45 degrees below the horizon until speed builds is only possible in a radio controlled aircraft with power to weight in excess of 1 to 1. Nothing manned can achieve that except a jet and jets lack the gyroscopic forces necessary to create these tumbles. (There is one jet capable of the lomcovak)

Plain old snap rolls are possible in just about any aircraft but again require pitch reductions to recover flying airspeed for a brief period.

What we see in AH with regard to post stall nose pointing at high AOA is pure fantasy.

And that is okay. It is a game and its good for the bottom line for Hitech to create the feeling in his subscribers that they are masters of virtual skies.

But lets not pretend it is reflective of the real world.

Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2016, 12:55:00 PM »
Dawger you make a lot of unsupported claims. Neil Williams, who taught himself aerobatics in a Tiger Moth,  said the Lomcevak is a surprisingly low stress maneuver when you do it properly.  Aircraft in the video appears to be recovering nose low.

Offline hitech

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2016, 01:05:27 PM »
By definition a stalled airfoil is in its very highest induced drag state the moment it begins flying again since it is at maximum AOA at that moment.

Form drag during a "tumble" is tremendous. The stress on the airframe is tremendous.

While aerobatic tumbles look like chaos they are actually carefully planned and executed maneuvers.
 
In modern aerobatic aircraft with extremely high thrust to weight and structure purpose built for the extreme stress of these maneuvers, Lomcovak's and other tumbles are routinely performed. However, they ALL require a brief period of extreme nose low attitude to regain flying speed.

The forces involved in this things wreaks havoc on aircraft structure, with engine mounts most susceptible to failure.

Doing these things in WWII era aircraft is a fantasy that would rip the engines off these aircraft if attempted.

The ability to recover from one without reducing the pitch 45 degrees below the horizon until speed builds is only possible in a radio controlled aircraft with power to weight in excess of 1 to 1. Nothing manned can achieve that except a jet and jets lack the gyroscopic forces necessary to create these tumbles. (There is one jet capable of the lomcovak)

Plain old snap rolls are possible in just about any aircraft but again require pitch reductions to recover flying airspeed for a brief period.

What we see in AH with regard to post stall nose pointing at high AOA is pure fantasy.

And that is okay. It is a game and its good for the bottom line for Hitech to create the feeling in his subscribers that they are masters of virtual skies.

But lets not pretend it is reflective of the real world.

First if your going to speak of flight modeling at least start by getting your terms right.

" nose pointing at high AOA" Is a completely nonsensical term. I assume you mean nose high relative to the horizon.

Ive personally done snap rolls in many different airplanes including p51's at about 45 inches of Manifold pressure during air combat .  The recovery did not require nose low, but simply a quick unload and hard opposite rudder would hook the plane right back up. I've done inverted snaps by accident in my rv which also did not require any nose low.

HiTech

Ive also done  Lomcovak's in an older yak. And I don't believe if you manage to do one in AH you could recover with out nose low either. In fact to accomplish the maneuver it requires very low air speed at the correct time and the plane just becomes ballistic.

As far as could the fighters of the day take the stresses of tumbling maneuvers? I would be very surprised if they couldn't.

HiTech

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2016, 01:25:04 PM »
He is clearly slowing down and losing altitude while snap rolling. If you can explain what his recovery speed should be that would be great. Some film of you tumbling and going faster would be good too.    :aok
I know for a fact these tumbles end you with less energy...but is it realistic that you could pull those Gs and still make a shot? You don't lose much e other than enough to force an overshoot in AH....
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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2016, 01:43:35 PM »
I know for a fact these tumbles end you with less energy...but is it realistic that you could pull those Gs and still make a shot? You don't lose much e other than enough to force an overshoot in AH....

Record some film of the most extreme maneuvers you can pull off then watch your g meter when watching the film.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »
Record some film of the most extreme maneuvers you can pull off then watch your g meter when watching the film.
If I'm not pulling Gs....why do I black out or red out. I'm assuming you're trying to say you don't pull Gs in this manuever
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