Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves

[Hungry]

I've seen this as well in my case I thought I made hit, the plane was spinning in a 3/4 - 1/4 motion fast then slow.  I thought I took parts off but just didn't see the parts fly so I backed off.  The plane spun like this from about 5k down, when I didn't see the kill message I came back around.  It literally looked like he bounced off the deck came straight at me and face shot me.

Came at me full speed and maneuvering, dam I wish I had the film

[Dobs]

How much speed should it lose?  You seem to think it should always end up below stall speed. Why is that?

Well FLS..define accelerated stall that leads to wild gyrations about the pitch and roll axis and you tell me.  It seems you think ZERO. To me the spiking of AOA leads to HUGE increases of induced drag, the gyrations from streamline mean HUGE increases in Parasitic drag... Go back to your airshow videos and let me know how many tumbles end up with him just flying straight out of it, or with him nose low to recover flying airspeed.


If you are saying he isn't really doing it, but the game shows him doing it....then that is another big issue.

[FLS]

FLS, the best comparison I can give is how a few people learned to spin-turn the 190 back in AW.  Get on their 6, they could spin-turn 180 degrees and fly away where you'd have to do an actual reversal (immelman, yo-yo, split-s, flat turn).

Certain folks seem to have this flippy/spin thing down here where it's nearly impossible to hit them, then they can recover in control and be on your 6 with minimal loss of speed.

It's 'gamey'...in a game.  Profound, I know!   

If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been?  You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.

Well FLS..define accelerated stall that leads to wild gyrations about the pitch and roll axis and you tell me.  It seems you think ZERO. To me the spiking of AOA leads to HUGE increases of induced drag, the gyrations from streamline mean HUGE increases in Parasitic drag... Go back to your airshow videos and let me know how many tumbles end up with him just flying straight out of it, or with him nose low to recover flying airspeed.


If you are saying he isn't really doing it, but the game shows him doing it....then that is another big issue.

Show me where I said or implied no loss of speed. You seem to have a problem understanding that you can lose speed and still fly. Caps aren't data.

[JunkyII]

If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been?  You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.

Show me where I said or implied no loss of speed. You seem to have a problem understanding that you can lose speed and still fly. Caps aren't data.

First, you can't give an exact amount of speed a plane should lose but a plane flying level at nearly the same or higher speed vs a plane that just did this sort of maneuver should be a very noticeable difference...right now the plane doing the maneuver can recover, keep up and get guns on the other plane.

[FLS]

It's a simple matter to snap roll a few times and note your entry and exit speeds. Even easier if you film it.

[Wiley]

First, you can't give an exact amount of speed a plane should lose but a plane flying level at nearly the same or higher speed vs a plane that just did this sort of maneuver should be a very noticeable difference...right now the plane doing the maneuver can recover, keep up and get guns on the other plane.

What would you estimate the speed difference would be?

Wiley.

[JunkyII]

What would you estimate the speed difference would be?

Wiley.

I can't give a good estimate but enough for the plane who didn't lose E in an eradicate maneuver to at least climb away from guns....as of now it doesn't look like a challenge for the other plane to keep up even when the other goes directly vertical.

[katanaso]

If you're talking about a snap roll that is the normal result of stalling one wing. AW had a simple flight model which the spin turn exploited. There is no comparison. What was the "minimal loss of speed" and what should it have been?  You can criticize the damage model in a high speed snap roll but nobody has made a case for a problem with the flight model.

Of course there's a comparison.  Any two things can be compared.  Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game.  In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model.  In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.

However, it's not just a single snap roll either.  It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit.  If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. 

[Dobs]

It's a simple matter to snap roll a few times and note your entry and exit speeds. Even easier if you film it.

Why don't you do that for us....

So far I've seen utter denial that there is a problem with planes tumbling and then just magically flying up your 6 as you go vertical.  Were you Capt of the Debate team growing up?  Can you not admit that a plane that tumbles is no longer aerodynamic and thus should be pissing away energy at a prodigious rate?  Instead you want a video and quantified data vs looking at the physics of it...





Deny everything, make immediate counter-accusations.

[waystin2]

Of course there's a comparison.  Any two things can be compared.  Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game.  In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model.  In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.

However, it's not just a single snap roll either.  It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit.  If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. 

Did someone say DEATH BLOSSOM? 

[katanaso]

Did someone say DEATH BLOSSOM? 
(Image removed from quote.)

You know it, Way!   

[FLS]

Of course there's a comparison.  Any two things can be compared.  Here it's comparing how people learned to take advantage of something in each game.  In AW, it was taking advantage of the simple flight model.  In AH3, it's taking advantage of the 'high speed snap roll' model.

However, it's not just a single snap roll either.  It's multiple, typically in both directions, then a controlled exit.  If there was smoke, it would be the most awesome display of airshow-quality acrobatic Death Blossom flying. 

There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model.   Did you watch my videos? 

Why don't you do that for us....

I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.

[Hungry]

There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model.   Did you watch my videos? 

I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.

What you're basically saying then is this "snap roll" is easily reproducible for testing and therefore useable in game no different than the AW 190

[Wiley]

Did someone say DEATH BLOSSOM? 
(Image removed from quote.)

Ink's back?

Why don't you do that for us....

So far I've seen utter denial that there is a problem with planes tumbling and then just magically flying up your 6 as you go vertical.  Were you Capt of the Debate team growing up?  Can you not admit that a plane that tumbles is no longer aerodynamic and thus should be pissing away energy at a prodigious rate?  Instead you want a video and quantified data vs looking at the physics of it...

I'm not saying FLS is right, but respectfully, if you want something changed to be accurate, you need to show HT what exactly is wrong.

You're saying something is wrong.  That something must be quantifiable.  To be able to say it's wrong, you should be able to say, "Doing this set of maneuvers and coming out at the end should have result x, but instead it's having result y.

You guys haven't defined results x or y as anything other than "it shouldn't have that much speed at that point".  How much speed should it have then?

Wiley.

[katanaso]

There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model.   Did you watch my videos? 

I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.

Oh, you're nitpicking now.  I see what you did.  lol  Stop it!  Yes, there's not a specific 'high speed snap roll' model that differs from the 'flight model'. 

How about this:  they've learned to take advantage of the nuances of the 'high speed snap roll' (initially, your phrase) within the AH3 flight model.  Better?   

I can't watch videos at the moment.  I'm tying this stuff between emails and meetings. 

If I have time tonight, I'll look at a film from last night to see the entry/exit speed of the plane doing it.  I'll also try myself, but I've never really tried it other than in a 38.  When I spin or snap roll, I usually end up in front of the bad guy more so than normal.