Author Topic: Attack label when rolling light  (Read 16352 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2016, 03:22:28 PM »
When I said it was a snap roll it wasn't a "blind no". It was an informed opinion.

When Hitech looked at AHfilm he said it was a snap roll.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2016, 03:25:20 PM »
When I said it was a snap roll it wasn't a "blind no". It was an informed opinion.

When Hitech looked at AHfilm he said it was a snap roll.
Yea but what the pilot was seeing at the time in game was recorded into a youtube video and it was obviously different....snap roll doesn't make a flicker out of control where you can't judge what it's doing.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2016, 03:30:34 PM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 03:44:29 PM by hitech »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2016, 03:43:14 PM »
My example IS rank 1 in kill points right now, we talking about the same thing?

Fighter Scores
Score     Rank 
Kills per Death + 1   3.55   37
Kills per Sortie   2.21   17
Kills per Hour of Flight   11.88   10
Kills Hit Percentage   11.26   34
Kill Points   55801.01   1


Fighter Scores
Score     Rank 
Kills per Death + 1   24.00   2
Kills per Sortie   2.40   15
Kills per Hour of Flight   6.19   84
Kills Hit Percentage   12.06   30
Kill Points   19972.67   11

Kills per hour of flight vs Kills per death....these are PERFECT examples of what I was talking about...one player is obviously more conservative (notice kills per hour of flight) in their way to approach fighter mode and they take a hit in 2 categories in particular. The other is more aggressive so he takes a hit on K/D, another thing of note is that player doesn't often hunt bombers so his accuracy would be a lot higher but that player also has VERY good aim compared to the general population(maybe why you were calling him a bad example?).


Fighter Scores
Score     Rank 
Kills per Death + 1   28.00   1
Kills per Sortie   28.00   1
Kills per Hour of Flight   12.38   8
Kills Hit Percentage   26.45   2
Kill Points   11693.86   43

current rank 1....notice the 43 for kill points.(1 sortie...)

Now I know a lot would say this is a rare incident but there's plenty of examples I could take from a handful of pilots in the last 4 years that got top 50 doing a very similar style(Few sorties lots of kills in single sortie...lets call it a 'certain' sortie because they are very certain they will land a lot of kills)....and I'm willing to bet a lot of them were landing big sorties killing the same person either upping on a field or just off a field....which sparked my suggestion.

BTW I'm not saying ignore a particular category but letting off in kill points is definitely the one to do it in....maybe that ties to veteran(good pilots) not having too much time to play so theres less competition in that category....notice the difference between one and 11 and 43...

What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2016, 04:18:25 PM »
What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?

HiTech
Depends on the amount of time players have to actually play....if all of them keep on the same exact path...number 1 will stay the same in points but drop in kill points rank Next guy(aggressive pilot) his will still climb because he is efficient killer and has A LOT of time to play...third one(conservative player) will keep climbing...hunting buffs I'm not sure how much of a difference it is but I've been told they get more kill points for buffs. I understand what you're getting at...his kill points will never go up meaning his rank in that category will go down. But his other numbers are still high and he will for sure stay in top 5 because of 1 "lucky" sortie. I understand the "it's just the way it is" but how could making a restriction on consecutive kills of the same player within a set time....disrupt game play at all for players trying to go for top ranks in fighter mode....unless their way of getting a lot of kills in fighter is by vulching/killing the same person over and over? I personally can't think of an example in game, Chalenge said one but that is where the time restriction would come into play...plus the kills would have to be consecutive...same person without any kills in between.

(By the way, in no means do I think this should be near to top of list of things to implement in game...I'm sure that list is longer then any of us can imagine...personally I'd like to see the KI84 updated ;) )
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2016, 04:35:00 PM »
What do you think the kill point rank will be in another 2 weeks?

HiTech


I guess something between 100 and 130.

And actually he has a very good chance of retaining his #1 fighter rank.
With his current score of just one sortie, he would have ended up #2 in fighters in last tour. And the #1 player (who's usually very heavy in kill points) of last tour won't be doing that this tour anymore...
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Offline hitech

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2016, 04:38:55 PM »
Depends on the amount of time players have to actually play....if all of them keep on the same exact path...number 1 will stay the same in points but drop in kill points rank Next guy(aggressive pilot) his will still climb because he is efficient killer and has A LOT of time to play...third one(conservative player) will keep climbing...hunting buffs I'm not sure how much of a difference it is but I've been told they get more kill points for buffs. I understand what you're getting at...his kill points will never go up meaning his rank in that category will go down. But his other numbers are still high and he will for sure stay in top 5 because of 1 "lucky" sortie. I understand the "it's just the way it is" but how could making a restriction on consecutive kills of the same player within a set time....disrupt game play at all for players trying to go for top ranks in fighter mode....unless their way of getting a lot of kills in fighter is by vulching/killing the same person over and over? I personally can't think of an example in game, Chalenge said one but that is where the time restriction would come into play...plus the kills would have to be consecutive...same person without any kills in between.

(By the way, in no means do I think this should be near to top of list of things to implement in game...I'm sure that list is longer then any of us can imagine...personally I'd like to see the KI84 updated ;) )

Why should I punish a guys score who got lucky? The end result is the same planes have been killed.

HiTech


Offline JunkyII

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2016, 09:01:45 PM »
Why should I punish a guys score who got lucky? The end result is the same planes have been killed.

HiTech
My only reason would be for a more competitive score system (better pilots in the higher ranks, taking a little luck out of the equation) for players looking for that in a game.

 :salute Hitech thanks for the discussion.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2016, 12:37:43 AM »
You fellas really need to learn look into the deep ocean instead of the shallow end of the pool. You really do not know what you are talking about.

Is that so? Alright, let's take you and Junky as a working example. Regarding this comment:

Yes, I've killed you enough.

I note with interest you don't say: 'I've flown against you enough' or 'seen you flying enough' or 'I've encountered you in the MA'. I'd take what you actually said as evidence of something I've said earlier: 'people who play the score sub-game often use it to imply more than it means'. You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it. A surface inspection:-

Your flying is timid and dictated by relative energy states. I've only seen you attack from advantage and stay at best neutral when co-e or numerically disadvantaged (more often you're erm, what's your term, egressing). Your ACM is shallow. You demonstrate no superior handling of your aircraft. Your knowledge of energy is one dimensional. You tend to extract evidence of your own performance from what are in fact axiomatic scenarios. Your flying is very ordinary. So presumably what's left to you is to look at your results. Score. You aren't a 'top stick', you're nowhere close after how many years of playing? So much for your being at the deep end of the pool.*

Then let's look at Junky, whom I've flown against many times as well as watched videos from. He'll fight from whatever starting position, advantage or disadvantage, energetically inferior or outnumbered. His ACM indicates depth of knowledge and application. His aircraft handling is top notch, including some departure manoeuvres that actually exceed convention (unlike your self-described 'Cobra Roll', which actually took longer to move your boresight vector than a conventional turn. I timed it). His knowledge of energy is two dimensional, and his overall flying is fair to say extraordinary, compared to the unwashed masses. By any metric that means anything he's a 'top stick'.

Yet you've 'killed him enough'. This is the core of this discussion which you seem to deliberately avoid and throw chaff into etcetera. Score and flying ability is often at best loosely coupled and more usually very misleading. I say playing for it usually implies very little in meaningful terms beyond helping people evidence something that isn't really there (some exceptions granted, Bruv119 for example).

I have no faith that anything will change in the scoring department, to the point I'm not even arguing for that. It's pointless. Just let me drop the following thought into the discussion: killing someone (by any means) is an entirely different thing than outflying someone. And every one of us knows when you're encountering a stick who is more skillful than you, usually in the first merge or watching them fight someone else. That takes considerably less time to observe than looking up their score and which might not even encapsulate that.

That's a qualitative element and the scoring system is quantitative by definition. In aces high (as opposed to certain sports for example), one is open to systematic manipulation and the other isn't.

Until you disassemble that observation or alter the scoring system to do it for you, any discussion is going to end in disagreement and people stating their subjective opinions of their experiences of it. In fact that's necessary.


* Not one atom of acerbic sarcasm present in that statement.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 12:39:57 AM by nrshida »
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Offline Lazerr

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2016, 12:46:53 AM »
Is that so? Alright, let's take you and Junky as a working example. Regarding this comment:

I note with interest you don't say: 'I've flown against you enough' or 'seen you flying enough' or 'I've encountered you in the MA'. I'd take what you actually said as evidence of something I've said earlier: 'people who play the score sub-game often use it to imply more than it means'. You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it. A surface inspection:-

Your flying is timid and dictated by relative energy states. I've only seen you attack from advantage and stay at best neutral when co-e or numerically disadvantaged (more often you're erm, what's your term, egressing). Your ACM is shallow. You demonstrate no superior handling of your aircraft. Your knowledge of energy is one dimensional. You tend to extract evidence of your own performance from what are in fact axiomatic scenarios. Your flying is very ordinary. So presumably what's left to you is to look at your results. Score. You aren't a 'top stick', you're nowhere close after how many years of playing? So much for your being at the deep end of the pool.*

Then let's look at Junky, whom I've flown against many times as well as watched videos from. He'll fight from whatever starting position, advantage or disadvantage, energetically inferior or outnumbered. His ACM indicates depth of knowledge and application. His aircraft handling is top notch, including some departure manoeuvres that actually exceed convention (unlike your self-described 'Cobra Roll', which actually took longer to move your boresight vector than a conventional turn. I timed it). His knowledge of energy is two dimensional, and his overall flying is fair to say extraordinary, compared to the unwashed masses. By any metric that means anything he's a 'top stick'.

Yet you've 'killed him enough'. This is the core of this discussion which you seem to deliberately avoid and throw chaff into etcetera. Score and flying ability is often at best loosely coupled and more usually very misleading. I say playing for it usually implies very little in meaningful terms beyond helping people evidence something that isn't really there (some exceptions granted, Bruv119 for example).

I have no faith that anything will change in the scoring department, to the point I'm not even arguing for that. It's pointless. Just let me drop the following thought into the discussion: killing someone (by any means) is an entirely different thing than outflying someone. And every one of us knows when you're encountering a stick who is more skillful than you, usually in the first merge or watching them fight someone else. That takes considerably less time to observe than looking up their score and which might not even encapsulate that.

That's a qualitative element and the scoring system is quantitative by definition. In aces high (as opposed to certain sports for example), one is open to systematic manipulation and the other isn't.

Until you disassemble that observation or alter the scoring system to do it for you, any discussion is going to end in disagreement and people stating their subjective opinions of their experiences of it. In fact that's necessary.


* Not one atom of acerbic sarcasm present in that statement.
winner winner chicken dinner!  :aok :cheers:

side note, i remember running into people like shida and junky and having fun....

I dont remember running into this challenge guy... i must be 15k below him.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 12:49:14 AM by Lazerr »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2016, 12:55:43 AM »
You forget I've watched several videos of your flying including the one you pulled down when there were comments made about it.

The only videos I took down were because AH2 was being rebuilt into AH3. The only negative comments came from one person jealous of the audio, and nothing said of the flying. You seem to forget that there was a time when I flew very, very aggressively. My  k/d and k/t was always ten times and even forty times yours on your best tour. Your analysis is based upon limited experience and knowledge about my flying and is weak on that basis. I submit you have no knowledge to draw upon and you take yourself too seriously.

Step off this topic.

@Lazerr, not worth even dignifying that junk.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2016, 01:40:24 AM »
The only negative comments came from one person jealous of the audio, and nothing said of the flying.

I commented on your Cobra Roll which was an example of ridiculously ineffective manoeuvre the mechanism of which you apparently didn't even understand and the day after your video was gone. Audio issue was it? Oh right.


Your analysis is based upon limited experience and knowledge about my flying and is weak on that basis. I submit you have no knowledge to draw upon

My analysis is based on six years of independent study and learning ACM from some of the best sticks in the last decade including duelling most of them for extended periods. I can and have fingered shades with little evidence and reasonable accuracy just by looking at their patterns of preferred ACM. I submit your motivation for trying to devalue my comments is because it threatens your self-delusion. I'd be happy to have others analyse your ACM and carefully consider their comments too, if you think that would be fairer.


My  k/d and k/t was always ten times and even forty times yours on your best tour.

You're forty times the man I am then!?!?!? Wow.

K/d and k/t says precisely nothing. I've spent the last two years flying in vain off peak in dwindling numbers looking for a fight. Mostly chasing vanishing darbars and bailing opponents. Before then I almost exclusively flew at the furbal lake which I think isn't even scored. I usually fly alone and low and if I find any opponents at all I wade straight in. If I find a capped base I up over and over again because it's better than flying around doing nothing. Again I note you resort to score without context to support your argument. You are in fact just endorsing and evidencing everything I've said about score. Why don't you think about it.


You seem to forget that there was a time when I flew very, very aggressively.

Okay then, evidence it. Let's see film. Pop your aggressive flying on YouTube for us. Let's see your series of skilful reversals of fortunes. Fighting it out outnumbered. Fighting from a disadvantaged starting position. Let's see you fighting against three BnZers simultaneously, or outmanoeuvring a superior turning aircraft. Let's see you flying without wingmen, or low down, or just off the coast from an enemy base fighting increasing numbers of uppers until you're fired upon from three directions simultaneously. Let's see you not extending. Let's see you holding fire because the fight is good and you're all about quality and not quantity. Let's see your evidence for what you claim otherwise you're just pompously talking out of your hat.


you take yourself too seriously.

Step off this topic.

How ironic :rofl



« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:44:21 AM by nrshida »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #117 on: October 18, 2016, 03:12:25 AM »
I'm ignoring you nrshida. You deserve it.

I'm about to spend $25,000 approximately on equipment and other expenses related to creating an FMOD sound pack for AH3. If I were to take into consideration your attitude toward me and my 'timid' flying, I might reconsider. This is probably just the beginning to my expenses, but it's my passion. I spent more previously, and will certainly spend more in the future. I don't need you bringing me down.

What is your contribution to AH?
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Offline ccvi

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #118 on: October 18, 2016, 03:24:34 AM »
we need a russian judge to score the ACM used per kill and it's technical attributes.

Almost. We need a general to judge the contribution to the war (capturing fields), and decide about rank based on that - instead of score. This would unite the play-styles of the score-worshipper and turf-capture crowds.

Unfortunately, neither the russian judge nor the general can be automated easily. Maybe with advances in AI?

Offline nrshida

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Re: Attack label when rolling light
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2016, 04:15:45 AM »
I'm ignoring you nrshida. You deserve it.

Please bud no, anything but that. I beg you. Remember you're 40 times the man I am  :old:


What is your contribution to AH?

How would our relative contributions to the game assert finer points of ACM analysis and a discussion about score?


I'm about to spend $25,000 approximately on equipment and other expenses related to creating an FMOD sound pack for AH3. If I were to take into consideration your attitude toward me and my 'timid' flying, I might reconsider. This is probably just the beginning to my expenses, but it's my passion. I spent more previously, and will certainly spend more in the future. I don't need you bringing me down.

Oh stop crying you big baby. A complete non-sequitur. No one asked you to make sound packs, that's your choice. There's some pretty awesome sound packs that didn't cost a penny. Perhaps your $25,000 could be better invested. I'm thinking therapy but you could probably do yourself a lot of good with a couple of weeks in Vegas  :rofl


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