Maximum Effort Feedback

[waystin2]

I wanted to provide some constructive criticism on the most recently completed FSO series. Here is my .02 cents:

1) Not a big fan of the altitude cap.  Enemy already know what the attackers are hitting, where attackers lifted from, what time attackers need to hit target by, roughly what direction attackers will be coming from and minimum/maximum unit strength of attackers.  In addition depending on the setup an altitude cap can play strongly to one side or the others plane set strengths.

2)  Not a big fan of the no point value for fighters.  There has to be some value placed on a fighter being shot down versus killing an attacker.  Otherwise the best defense is to fly right into bomber guns blazing, maybe collide, maybe get shot down by escorts, but if you got one or more bombers its a good trade off.  Further it creates a situation where there is reduced combat between the two sides.  One side actually seeking it, and one completely avoiding it until the last possible moment when the attackers near target.

3) The aircraft limitations where great.  This is where the realism hits home.  Not everybody gets to fly a Pony or 190A-5.  Forces us all to stretch out a bit a maybe fly something we have not before.  Like me in a fully locked up diving P-38J in Frame 1  .

Thanks for reading.

See you up there,

Way

[Bino]

IMHO, so long as level bombers have the same accuracy from 40,000 feet that they have from 4,000 feet, then altitude caps make sense to me.

I happen to agree with your other two points, though, Waystin.

 

[EagleDNY]

I think this is a scenario that would have benefited from having dar bar with a 5 minute delay on it coupled with the axis only having a general idea of the targets the allies are trying to hit instead of the actual field or city.  Both sides knew exactly where the other was going to lift, and where they needed to be by T+60.  I think that a scenario like this is enhanced by the flood of real time data coming in from the dar bars - the axis knows the bombers are lifting but doesn't know the target, while the allies know where the response is coming from but not the types of aircraft coming from there.  With a 60-40 allied split, the allied fighter cover can run fighter sweeps and close cover on the bombers while all the axis could do here was scout and wait - 5 minute dar bar would have allowed them better positioning of their inferior numbers. 

Alt cap on the bombers was OK - truthfully with the haze we had I wondered how they could see the ground to hit anything.  Might want to turn the haze settings down a bit and make more use of the really nice clouds. 

<S> though - fun overall.   

[puller]

If I were Allied CIC... I would have thrown my fighters which were worth nothing against the minimal Axis fighter presence...

3 frames Allied fighters flew past my small squad...each frame I found the bombers and sent the message to CIC... And engaged them...

Now we did get killed by the embedded escort that was thick...but not before a terrible toll was wrought upon the heavies...

Why didn't y'all actually sweep our fighters...your fighters were worth no points...if any of them made it back without killing at least 1 axis fighter you failed...

I would have had my fighters all over the target area killing everything that moved... U knew where we were...you had multiple ponys that just flew around at 30k doing nothing...they flew over me 3 frames in a row...

November FSO summary....
Total Axis dominance.... Again...

[waystin2]

IMHO, so long as level bombers have the same accuracy from 40,000 feet that they have from 4,000 feet, then altitude caps make sense to me.

This is true Bino.  However, I think this can be addressed by increasing wind speeds and changing wind directions as altitude increases.

[waystin2]

If I were Allied CIC... I would have thrown my fighters which were worth nothing against the minimal Axis fighter presence...

3 frames Allied fighters flew past my small squad...each frame I found the bombers and sent the message to CIC... And engaged them...

Now we did get killed by the embedded escort that was thick...but not before a terrible toll was wrought upon the heavies...

Why didn't y'all actually sweep our fighters...your fighters were worth no points...if any of them made it back without killing at least 1 axis fighter you failed...

I would have had my fighters all over the target area killing everything that moved... U knew where we were...you had multiple ponys that just flew around at 30k doing nothing...they flew over me 3 frames in a row...

November FSO summary....
Total Axis dominance.... Again...

Thank you for your insight. 

[EagleDNY]

Why didn't y'all actually sweep our fighters...your fighters were worth no points...if any of them made it back without killing at least 1 axis fighter you failed...

My scouts got swept by P-38s out in front of the bomber force last night - I got one, but they nailed me just fine.   I never even saw the bomber stream.   
I did manage to bypass the P-51s by just not going right over their target - never saw a single one even though they had 183 flashing constantly. 

Again - a plug for 5 minute dar bars for realism. 

[Nefarious]

I think Frames 2 and 3 were much better executed by the Allies, Frame 3 especially.

I kind of got lost with the scoring aspect myself, but I participated like I would in any other FSO, nothing really changed that.

[Dawger]

Very easy setup for the Axis with named targets and Allied force split in two.

No reason for the Axis to do anything but wait a little out of the way until the bombers got close and then blast bombers.

Haze and low sun last night looked awful, like flying in a puddle of mud for 90 minutes.

I dearly wish the CM would start the frame at a specific GAME TIME so missions can be used properly

[KCDitto]

We found some bombers




I would agree with the above that these guys furballing on the deck were not to concerned with the scoring... other than personal kill tally   




Was a fun night and why we spend Friday nights together.  No solution to it but objective based scoring vs. killing enemy aircraft scoring is going to need some refining.

[j500ss]

If I were Allied CIC... I would have thrown my fighters which were worth nothing against the minimal Axis fighter presence...

3 frames Allied fighters flew past my small squad...each frame I found the bombers and sent the message to CIC... And engaged them...

Now we did get killed by the embedded escort that was thick...but not before a terrible toll was wrought upon the heavies...

Why didn't y'all actually sweep our fighters...your fighters were worth no points...if any of them made it back without killing at least 1 axis fighter you failed...

I would have had my fighters all over the target area killing everything that moved... U knew where we were...you had multiple ponys that just flew around at 30k doing nothing...they flew over me 3 frames in a row...

November FSO summary....
Total Axis dominance.... Again...

You spent the time typing all the above just to come and make your point in the last 2 lines?   That is funny!    I could have predicted it before the first frame, but oh well 

When you know EXACTLY, where every specific enemy air frame is lifting from, and you have bases of your own all along a front, coupled with knowing EXACTY what the targets are, makes for some reasonably easy tactical decisions.

In frame 1 we were assigned sweep duty, we saw 3 red guys over the target. Turns out the Axis low scouts, that went unnoticed just obviously gave very good positions of the buffs and the defenders simply outflanked the sweep, and slid right in behind the buffs.

In frame 2 we were close escort, basically same scenario, heck we even sat up there at 20k watching the Axis scout and shadow the buffs, and then same style attack yet again, outflank and slid in from behind and above.

In frame 3, we just happened to run across the 410's who were feet wet, and with 109 scouts looking for the buff formations.  So basically same concept, except they ran across fighters before ever seeing the buffs.

First 2 frames axis targets to defend were basically stacked on top of one another, with scouting you have ability to use your entire defensive force on one target then flex to the next, provided......  The strikes are not timed.  Which in frames 1 and 2 allies went direct.

So in the end, not hard to figure out at all.  At least for me anyways.   

But to change it, and the setup as a whole?  I'm not sure.  The scoring aspect I could care less about anymore.

But a couple thoughts to maybe at least consider for next time?

Allies should NOT have been limited to specific air frames to specific bases.  If I want to be able to run coordinated, timed attacks from multiple bases, I should have that ability available.

Allies should have been allowed fighter ords for airfield attacks vs finding out 2 days before frame they are not available.

The above delayed dar bar idea is interesting, Some of us in G3 discussed the same thing in frame 1.

Smaller dar rings and warning ranges to allow more routing options, heck no warning ranges at all as far as I am concerned.  That might be interesting as well right?

So yes puller, yet again the Axis handed the Allies their oscar.......   But honestly I would bet few that you talk to would find it surprising.

        

     

[captain1ma]

lately I tell my guys not to bother with fighters unless you have to. the bombers are where the points are. we'll run from fighters, just to hit bombers!
we're just adjusting for the rules. since fighters are not worth points, no point in fighting them. im sure im not alone.

I have no problems with alt caps or scoring. I just have to figure out where the points are most tactifully important.

I think dot dar should be on for tower only for guys that get shot down. and I feel that manned guns should be available also to defend bases
under attack.

just my 2 cents

Jaeger1 <S>

[Dantoo]

Every contentious issue that has been complained about in this thread so far has been implemented over many years and has become a "feature" of FSO.   I complained about many of them as they were introduced, more or less, because FSO was becoming completely scripted.  I was and still would be in the minority in having a desire for more freedom for CICs.  WxMan was also a strong advocate as I recall.

The reasoning has always been that FSO was a late night event for US based players and it had to be guaranteed that that the players would get squad vs squad action within the first hour.  I can live with that and scenarios provide manna for my tactical hunger.

The FSOs that seem to bring the loudest cries of dissatisfaction are those where only one side attacks and the other side only defends. 
The CMs have tried to introduce many concepts over time to bring some balance in these setups.  Numbers, limited plane types, alt restrictions, wind, scoring innovations and quite a few others. 

My observation is that it rarely ever works unless the historical basis is so strong that the players overlook everything that irks them and become immersed in the re-enactment strengths of the event. 

[JunkyII]

If I were Allied CIC... I would have thrown my fighters which were worth nothing against the minimal Axis fighter presence...

3 frames Allied fighters flew past my small squad...each frame I found the bombers and sent the message to CIC... And engaged them...

Now we did get killed by the embedded escort that was thick...but not before a terrible toll was wrought upon the heavies...

Why didn't y'all actually sweep our fighters...your fighters were worth no points...if any of them made it back without killing at least 1 axis fighter you failed...

I would have had my fighters all over the target area killing everything that moved... U knew where we were...you had multiple ponys that just flew around at 30k doing nothing...they flew over me 3 frames in a row...

November FSO summary....
Total Axis dominance.... Again...

Wait...you had fighters not engaging a single bomber and your talking about tactics??? Get out of here you non factor

[puller]

Wait...you had fighters not engaging a single bomber and your talking about tactics??? Get out of here you non factor

When did we not kill a bomber...
Edit....

Looks like we killed 17 bombers over the 3 frames...