Ok we need your help here.

[waystin2]

Please don't kick us out of FSO for bringing too many again this week...

Having all my guys showing up and a few extra friends made our night awesome...

I'll up our preference for January...and I expect to be put back Axis...

I for one am a huge fan of PTO....and was highly disappointed by getting banished to the Allied side...but we always show up...we might only have 2 guys show up but at least someone will be there 

14 pilots!  That is what we need in FSO,  so WTG!   

[puller]

14 pilots!  That is what we need in FSO,  so WTG!   

We probably won't ever have that many again   

[Drano]

From the FSO rules...

All initial attack aircraft. To me that would mean all aircraft carrying ords and ordered to attack should be attacking within T+60. Not attacking a target would be a violation of this rule IMO.

I hate to take at least some credit for this rule but..

Years ago I was a frame CO. It was a Pacific setup like this. Want to say it was Midway. Had 88s subbing for the Betty we didn't have yet. I came up with a plan that took the bomber force all around the map designed to hit the target with JUST enough time to make it back home by end frame. Worked to perfection. The defenders were all low--bored and probably looking to tower out when we finally showed up. Totally wrecked the target. Lost only a couple of planes to a P-40 still up at altitude. Everybody landed with like 2 minutes to spare.

I was thinking that was a heckuva plan! That was until the forum started lighting up. Looking back I could see where that would totally suck if you were one of those defenders that actually showed up for the frame. Maybe that was their only few hours a week that they could get up flying? I'm kinda in that boat these days. So yeah that really would suck to just bore holes in the virtual sky for well over an hour when you could go to another arena and have some fun. Nobody would show up for nothing!

And so not long after that debacle the 60 minute rule came in.

It's hard to please everybody in these events. We all want to see action, of course, or we wouldn't be there. Some of us, like myself, enjoy the strategic planning element that can make these frames truely memorable. That whole "I love it when a plan comes together!" (tm The A Team) thing. I'd hate to see these things become completely scripted by rules and setup. I really think it'd ruin the nature of the event. It's a difficult problem striking that balance (for lack of a better word).



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[JunkyII]

That is very inflammatory coming from a CM in Training.  Are you part of the Pigs FSO Command Team?

You were very vocal on text during Frame 2. The intent of FSO is to fight. The other side of the intent is to win.

Have you planned as a CIC al by yourself?

I'm a KOTH CM...an FSO participant...

What would you like me to call not sending the Bettys toward the target??? Strategy?? That's one of the biggest problems in Aces High people avoid combat and call it strategy...what it would be called in Real War or combat is being a coward...hence my remark. Hopefully it does hit a soft spot and they understand that they shouldn't just be thinking about their end of the situation....they flew for 20-30 minutes without seeing combat....most of POTW (one of the largest participants in FSO these days) flew around for an hour and 45 minutes without seeing a single enemy aircraft....just because I'm the vocal one doesn't mean everyone on our squad channel left last night pissed off....then to come here and see it was a "setup" issue and they are "going to lose participants???" We had an Australian guy rush home from work to get back in time for FSO because he was excited about the action...he left early because of frustration of the lack of action. This same type of issue happened in the 12 hour scenario....you got a problem with the setup bring it up and get it changed before...don't take it upon yourself...you got to think about all parties involved....how do my decisions effect others??? That question wasnt fully answered when the decision was made to not send the Bettys in.

I stand by all my statements...If the reason to not send the Bettys in was because it was a suicide mission...that's cowardice....in a video game...

 

[Spikes]

That is very inflammatory coming from a CM in Training.  Are you part of the Pigs FSO Command Team?

You were very vocal on text during Frame 2. The intent of FSO is to fight. The other side of the intent is to win.

Have you planned as a CIC al by yourself?

I have. But it is possible to fight and win without violating the rules.

I agree with Junky's sentiments. While the task may be daunting or damn near impossible, you still have to try. There have been plenty of times where the squad I was flying with was stuck with planes like Ju88s, Ju87s, B5Ns, etc. Slow planes that, before the frame even begins have a low % chance of survival. However, we would NEVER not attempt to accomplish the mission. What is the worst thing that happens, you lose your pixel airplane and get to go to bed a bit earlier?

[JunkyII]

I hate to take at least some credit for this rule but..

Years ago I was a frame CO. It was a Pacific setup like this. Want to say it was Midway. Had 88s subbing for the Betty we didn't have yet. I came up with a plan that took the bomber force all around the map designed to hit the target with JUST enough time to make it back home by end frame. Worked to perfection. The defenders were all low--bored and probably looking to tower out when we finally showed up. Totally wrecked the target. Lost only a couple of planes to a P-40 still up at altitude. Everybody landed with like 2 minutes to spare.

I was thinking that was a heckuva plan! That was until the forum started lighting up. Looking back I could see where that would totally suck if you were one of those defenders that actually showed up for the frame. Maybe that was their only few hours a week that they could get up flying? I'm kinda in that boat these days. So yeah that really would suck to just bore holes in the virtual sky for well over an hour when you could go to another arena and have some fun. Nobody would show up for nothing!

And so not long after that debacle the 60 minute rule came in.

It's hard to please everybody in these events. We all want to see action, of course, or we wouldn't be there. Some of us, like myself, enjoy the strategic planning element that can make these frames truely memorable. That whole "I love it when a plan comes together!" (tm The A Team) thing. I'd hate to see these things become completely scripted by rules and setup. I really think it'd ruin the nature of the event. It's a difficult problem striking that balance (for lack of a better word).



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Last night we were holding out hoping that they met the 60 minute rule, with the zeak ki43 attack...which the host CM informed us that they did...and they were going to send the Bettys in the last minute just like you said you did....This wouldn't have been an issue if they would have done that because at least we got some action.

[Drano]

Last night we were holding out hoping that they met the 60 minute rule, with the zeak ki43 attack...which the host CM informed us that they did...and they were going to send the Bettys in the last minute just like you said you did....This wouldn't have been an issue if they would have done that because at least we got some action.

Even so without looking I'm pretty sure the rule is any initial attack prior to T+60 must be of "squadron strength". This is designed to exclude someone from merely coming into a target with a single plane, dropping say the radar at T+59, to game the rule, and then bring the "actual" attack much later in the frame not unlike mine described above. While you say you'd have been OK with that at least, it still would have been a really boring frame for you. That's the kinda crap the T+60 rule is designed to remove.

But like I said. It's tough to come up with a plan that contains a great amount of strategy given everyone knows what the targets are, what fields are in use, what planes will likely be coming and when they have to get there. FSO is already semi-scripted for those reasons alone. But given the short time frame I don't know what the alternative might be. No matter what the setup is it's still only a two hour event. Only so much you could do really. If you gave the whole two hours to the strategists I'd be willing to bet there'd be an awful lot of that just flying around stuff every frame!


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[AKKuya]

I believe in fighting in all aircraft. That is what these setups are for. To get you out of your late war comfort zone and challenge yourself in other types.

What Viper as CIC and Kool did might be explained as a little protest against the current setup due to participation levels. Axis CIC didn't violate any rules as far as I can tell by the logs.  I don't receive the Objectives anymore to know the individual Frame requirements. Just a rank and file pilot now.

Junky, I understand your anger and frustration. I also waited for the 2nd attack that never arrived.

My time as a rotating CIC, I always made aggressive plans as possible. That was when we had 500 pilots participating.  When possible, I has secondary targets for strike groups.  As I recall, Early War and PTO setups were the best for creative planning especially with Axis. 

From your statements, I can deduce that you would prefer all players in the cartoon game to fight and die rather than survive? My question to you is would you fly the Bettys or D3s to target in low numbers to be easily shot down by Allied fighters?

[JunkyII]

I believe in fighting in all aircraft. That is what these setups are for. To get you out of your late war comfort zone and challenge yourself in other types.

What Viper as CIC and Kool did might be explained as a little protest against the current setup due to participation levels. Axis CIC didn't violate any rules as far as I can tell by the logs.  I don't receive the Objectives anymore to know the individual Frame requirements. Just a rank and file pilot now.

Junky, I understand your anger and frustration. I also waited for the 2nd attack that never arrived.

My time as a rotating CIC, I always made aggressive plans as possible. That was when we had 500 pilots participating.  When possible, I has secondary targets for strike groups.  As I recall, Early War and PTO setups were the best for creative planning especially with Axis. 

From your statements, I can deduce that you would prefer all players in the cartoon game to fight and die rather than survive? My question to you is would you fly the Bettys or D3s to target in low numbers to be easily shot down by Allied fighters?

No...I prefer them to come up with a decisive operation and execute it with violence of action, good communication, basic ACM and wingman tactics....if they all die, valiant effort...if we all die well done.

I'll fly whatever Pigs get assigned and then further whatever position Waystin2 assigns me...whether that be Leading our escorts, leading scouts, covering the Ace pilot ect ect...no complaints....I will perform to the best of my ability...

I sure won't "protest" during an event...I was pissed off last night...but I was still maintaining my post above A4 and 67.

[Drano]

No...I prefer them to come up with a decisive operation and execute it with violence of action, good communication, basic ACM and wingman tactics....if they all die, valiant effort...if we all die well done.

+1

[Becinhu]

Second strike was next to nothing as an axis defender last night as well. Maybe the higher numbers of allied planes showing in flight after T+60 were just the defenders, I don't know. But the only second strike we saw was 2 f4fs and two or three sbds at a11. C54 never got hit after the initial attack.

A11 only had radar and one or two guns hit. C54 lost the carrier but no other ships. The cv attack was very well executed though. Small squad of sbds pulled the cap down while the high altitude b25s sank the carrier. Very few of the sbds and escorts made it back but it was a successful attack.

I was hoping for more action late frame that never showed but I survived the frame which is always a welcome plus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DmonSlyr]

IMO, the way the FSO played out, the allies needed more players anyway. War never knows how many troops the enemy will bring. The Air Raiders had attack planes too, so we all weren't fighters. I think the squad and allied really needed us. I was a walk on, I admit. But I can never actually plan if I'm going to play or not.  I think the axis did just fine, but they choose not to attack and that was a mistake because a lot of the a6ms hurt our best fighters.

[puller]

IMO, the way the FSO played out, the allies needed more players anyway. War never knows how many troops the enemy will bring. The Air Raiders had attack planes too, so we all weren't fighters. I think the squad and allied really needed us. I was a walk on, I admit. But I can never actually plan if I'm going to play or not.  I think the axis did just fine, but they choose not to attack and that was a mistake because a lot of the a6ms hurt our best fighters.

When you were making FSO more often we really cleaned em up...thanks to you and Stokes for beefing up our fighters...both of you are always welcome   

[branch37]

Last night VF-17 had SBDs.  Our first mission into A11 went about as well as it could considering our bomber talent.  Losses and bomb accuracy were both minimal, but we made it home with most of us intact.  We re armed and headed back to see if we could do some more damage.  I'm pretty sure we all missed again but this time I'm pretty sure most of us died.  Hell even if you know you're probably gonna die in your bombers at least try and make it fun.  Most of VF-17s bomber runs end up being some of the most enjoyable simply because we know we suck in them, and the surprises can only be good ones.

Sure I have complaints about this setup, like making the USN use B5Ns but even if we were assigned them we would at least try and make it fun.   

[Joker312]

I don't recall ever seeing a squad not attack an assigned target just because they thought they were going to die. Is that what happened here?
If that is in fact what happened then someone needs to explain to the CiC or squad CO or whoever was responsible for that decision, that this isn't real life and it is expected that everyone do their part to accomplish their mission, regardless of losses.

There really is no need to kick anyone out or overreact in any way to this. We just need to make it clear to those who screwed up.

I know that it sux when FSO players don't get their share of the action but it happens sometimes. What matters is that it really don't happen that often and its easily corrected.

As always I enjoyed the event even if I did fly for the AXIS:) Thanks to all.