Player numbers down?

[Zoney]

Players like me are the majority fugitive. For some reason you simply just cannot connect the dots on why all the fighter squads left, or only play in the FSO. Why would fighter squads only play in FSO if that's nothing but fighter planes and bombers? Why have #s dropped when fighter action around the map is hard to find?

If people don't care about quick intensity fight, why have the #s dropped? Why have quick action games become so much more popular. There are sharks in WT and Il-2, didn't see those #s teetering. I want to keep the MA, the MA is a great concept. But AH is missing an arena for people who just want to tango in a short period of time, with no score.

I hate to say it but Nrshida's perception is correct, but my ideas don't even change the game one bit. An arena FFA bowl would only add extra fun for these types of players. It could possibly being in so many more players who enjoy combat and AH flight model. 

You are really missing so much of what I say Fugitive. You want to pander to the weak minority and that's why the #s have dropped. How can you expect to expect the #s to increase when you want strategy, hide in threes, type of players who don't want other players around.  You are pandering to people who don't want combat action, or anyone to see them, how are those playing styles going to increase the #s overall? They aren't, because only a few people have the patients for that. No fights and action around the maps leads to decreasing #s. It's that simple. That's why I suggest shorter base distances on smaller maps. It would fix game play without even changing any thing to the game.

You don't think there is anything wrong with the MA but that we just need more #s. How is that possible when the #s have been dropping do to lack of combat action? How do you get more #s back by pandering to the strategy "hide in the trees" players?  Then you say the MA has been dying do to timid players ganging and picking, but don't understand why those situations become possible.  Plus it's much more frustrating for a new player to spend 20 minutes climbing to a fight only to die quickly. You are very wrong on your assessment about an FFA bowl. The MA encourages timidness while there is no other map that encourages fighter ACM and fighter combat quickly. These players don't have anywhere to learn how to fight with other players, besides the Training arena, but that's more 1 on 1, and many new players don't have time for setting all of that up or knowing what to do, and asking players in the MA is a feat. They want to jump into the action and go all out.  If you create a faster bowl FFA arena. These players would learn and understand combat a little better, and youd see more people fighting in the MA again, rather than running and extending at 20K because they don't know what to do.

Time is an issue Fugitive, especially when you spend 30 minutes and can't find a single red guy to shoot at. You spend 30 minutes to climb and then get ganged. You need to realise how this effects players so many people just don't have the time anymore to chase small dars In a big MA. I truely think you need to change your perspective because I simply don't think you truely undertsand what is bringing the #s to a stand.

Give me a break already Violator.  Players like you are NOT the majority or the majority of players would do nothing but furball, that is clearly not the case.  There already are things in place where those that just want to furball can easily do so but you aren't doing that, you just want to change how other players want to play.  You are guessing and expressing your opinions, and that's just fine, but you do not really know why the numbers dropped.  Nor do I believe that you know what it would take to get the numbers back up, you have an opinion and again, that's fine but is just that, an opinion.  And by no means is yours the majority opinion just because you say it is so.

As an example, I have been playing a long time here.  I like the long sorties.  I like the hunt.  I have a great time every time I play and it is different every time.  I see a lot of action all over.  Is every sortie dream perfect, no.  That's the beauty of it, you've got to be ready to change your plans, improvise, be flexible.  The inability or unwillingness for you to do so is what's making you so miserable.

When I'm flying I see a lot of guys doing what I'm doing.  I see a lot of guys having a good time GV'ing.  I see a lot of buffs that are fun to intercept.  And I see a lot of guys finding a bunch of fights.

Finally, my opinion is it is you that needs to change, not the game, not how players play.  This is not those other games.  This is this game.  This game has a thousand different ways to play it.

[guncrasher]

fso is a couple of horde fighter missions looking for 1 or 2 hordes of bombers missions while avoiding the horde of enemy fighters.

sorry fugitive that's how simple fso is.  lots of fun though.


semp

[DmonSlyr]

Players like you MAY have been the majority, but that was years ago.

FSO numbers are good because they use tactics and strategies instead of running horde missions.

We had an FFA arena in the old days, it was called the dueling arena with a nice big lake in the center of three bases. No it didnt air spawn you but all bases were at 5k and in minutes you were at speed and closing in on the "fight" at the center of the lake. But we all know what happened to that. Too many griefers turned it into a waste land and now its gone. I guess the theory of a quick action arena failed that time, why would it work now?

Im not pandering to any type of player. Im just saying that HTC MUST have all the option of different styles of game play available, other wise they are just cutting their throats. An all "fighter" game would never survive. A game with fighters, buffs, ships, vehicles, strat, base capture, ground 2 air has been rolling along over a dozen years.

Moving bases, do you know what is involved in that? Have you been following Bustr's journey? To move bases of the maps we have would mean rebuilding them from scratch. If you have been following Bustr map building you'd know that it takes months to do one map.

I think the numbers have been dropping due to boredom. The lack of fights is a by-product of the low numbers. Double the numbers and we would have twice the fights we have now. More people, more action. Pretty simple.

I've already explained why the DA did not work, it is not a FFA, it's team based which causes problems. Again, as I explained to bustr, you are stuck in an illusion that because the DA lake failed, people don't want fast action fighting, but the real reason it failed is because it's a terrible layout that doesn't work.

[nrshida]

I've already explained why the DA did not work

Worked fine for me. I almost lived in there for four years 

I like the long sorties.  I like the hunt.  I have a great time every time I play and it is different every time.  I see a lot of action all over. 

Why don't you make some YouTube videos Zoney. I like to see what other people like to do in AH.

I'd make some myself but I can't figure out that camera view thing that Dolby used to do

[Zoney]

Why don't you make some YouTube videos Zoney. I like to see what other people like to do in AH.

I'd make some myself but I can't figure out that camera view thing that Dolby used to do (Image removed from quote.)

Pffftttttttttt.............I'm an idiot and videos required more than being an idiot.  I'm lucky just to have oposable thumbs or I'd be lost.  The videos would have to be "condensed" or they might prove boring for the majority of players.  I hunt buffs, high buffs a lot.  That requires me to read and guess what might be coming and when and be there waiting to pounce.  I would also be afraid that a video would give away my .engagecloaking device cheat or let everyone know who my shade was that tells me where the bombers are going 
 

[DmonSlyr]

Worked fine for me. I almost lived in there for four years 

This actually proves my point in one way. You lived there for four years because it was a way to find quick fun fighter action. BAM!  There are so many other people who are the same way. The reason why no one flies in it anymore is because it's too big and still takes too much time. You are right about it being 0 populated, which is hard to get players in it. But if 2-4 players were to go into the fighter bowl that was only 1 sector total, it would spark the fights much better than the current layout, and you won't have teams to lopside the #s. You can't shoot your teammate and that's a problem becuase it limits the players you can fight agaisnt in 1 sortie and creates gangs. Every other reason I've already mentioned over and over again is why it's lacking in action. I still think the # one reason why the AvA is not getting any traction is that the map just doesn't make sense and the bases are still too far apart. Keep it simple.

All I'm saying is that a non team, FFA sector large bowl, limiting temps and 262s, would work so much better, and bring people who can't find action on the MA, find action here.

[nrshida]

The reason why no one flies in it anymore is because it's too big and still takes too much time.

Sorry to differ with you but I thought the size was just about perfect in my timezone (probably a bit small when I got to fly in your peak times). There was often several smaller furbals or 1 on 1s going on. Often had a new player behind a base going over some BFM with him. The duelling fields were too far apart. Eventually we had MickyD's duelling map for that. Airspawns close together. That only allowed duelling though.

You lived there for four years because it was a way to find quick fun fighter action. BAM! 

Actually to the contrary. A lot of my 'breakfast club' time was waiting for people to finish 1 on 1s or flying around by myself waiting for friends to show up. I used to fly circles with my wingtip touching the water. For a time it even threw a rooster tail before some update took that away. I simply found the furbal lake to be more ACM-focussed. Big cultural shock for me when I did start to fly MA. I couldn't undertand why people would fly away when co-e or from 1 on 1s. I'd become used to the culture of fighting it out regardless of starting positions or numbers.

The lake made me a proper ACM-head, but I learned to tolerate and appreciate other activities than what I was into.

End of the day you need people to play with. I think tolerance and providing faciltiy for people to do their thing is better than trying to funnel players into this or that activity or behaviour.

Merely my subjective opinion of course.

 

[cav58d]

Lack of maps is a real problem.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am tremendously disappointed that after returning from a ten year break there are not at least 20 maps in rotation.  It takes time, I know.  Bustr has been working on his map for many months, right?  Bustr  likely has a full time job and Isn't working on the map 9-5.  I don't understand why HTC isn't doing this?

Strats are an issue.  They should be extremely difficult to hit and just as hard to supp.  Make them high risk, high effort for a high reward.  Take away the GV spawns.

Speaking of GV's, they are definitely changing the game and I'm not sure it's for the better.  Absolutely no reason to launch a goon when nearly all the fields have a spawn for bum rush of stealth M3's running at full speed to a town that was one pass white flagged by lancs.  The MA has become an arcade game, long live FSO.

[Vraciu]

Lack of maps is a real problem.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am tremendously disappointed that after returning from a ten year break there are not at least 20 maps in rotation.  It takes time, I know.  Bustr has been working on his map for many months, right?  Bustr  likely has a full time job and Isn't working on the map 9-5.  I don't understand why HTC isn't doing this?

Strats are an issue.  They should be extremely difficult to hit and just as hard to supp.  Make them high risk, high effort for a high reward.  Take away the GV spawns.

Speaking of GV's, they are definitely changing the game and I'm not sure it's for the better.  Absolutely no reason to launch a goon when nearly all the fields have a spawn for bum rush of stealth M3's running at full speed to a town that was one pass white flagged by lancs.  The MA has become an arcade game, long live FSO.

Bingo. 

Bingo.

Bingo. 

[DmonSlyr]

Sorry to differ with you but I thought the size was just about perfect in my timezone (probably a bit small when I got to fly in your peak times). There was often several smaller furbals or 1 on 1s going on. Often had a new player behind a base going over some BFM with him. The duelling fields were too far apart. Eventually we had MickyD's duelling map for that. Airspawns close together. That only allowed duelling though.


Actually to the contrary. A lot of my 'breakfast club' time was waiting for people to finish 1 on 1s or flying around by myself waiting for friends to show up. I used to fly circles with my wingtip touching the water. For a time it even threw a rooster tail before some update took that away. I simply found the furbal lake to be more ACM-focussed. Big cultural shock for me when I did start to fly MA. I couldn't undertand why people would fly away when co-e or from 1 on 1s. I'd become used to the culture of fighting it out regardless of starting positions or numbers.

The lake made me a proper ACM-head, but I learned to tolerate and appreciate other activities than what I was into.

End of the day you need people to play with. I think tolerance and providing faciltiy for people to do their thing is better than trying to funnel players into this or that activity or behaviour.

Merely my subjective opinion of course.

 

The Faster arena would be more ACM oriented because people would actually fight and be able to learn combat much more quickly. It doesn't matter if you die over and over again, its about the time it takes to get to the fight, if there is one.  That's the whole point. What you and bustr and Fugitive still can't understand is why people run and gang in the MA. It's because of Time and lack of fight undertsanding. That's the biggest reason. People don't fight becuase they don't know how. They don't have anywhere to learn or just figure out some basics before they get into the MA. There is no place to practice fighting because the DA lake is terrible and doesn't work great as a furball arena. The reasons I've already mentioned is why it's not working. The 5K team based lake is boring and planes always enter with an advantage from their base or get ganged next to their base rolling. It doesn't work. People are running away and flying timidly in the MA because they don't want to die quickly after getting to a base and spending 15-20 minutes just to get there. That's just how the MA is. What you guys don't realise is that I am offering a better solution to fixing the ganging and lack of Fights in the MA, becuase people will have the chance to learn their skills more quickly in a FFA setting and they will utilize those skills to fight better in the MA. You really have to think about this from a new persons point of view. Or at least from a returning players point of view who is craving WW2 airplane action and can't find a real fight on the map. Many sorties can take up 45 minutes to get 3-6 kills.

There has to be away to find quicker fights in AH, if they can't make adjustments to the arenas than make the new maps have a little bit shorter base distance. That's the best way to spark excitment back into AH.

One thing I do agree with you on was the base distance between dueling fields. But the spawns work pretty well now so it's alright.

Lack of maps is a real problem.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am tremendously disappointed that after returning from a ten year break there are not at least 20 maps in rotation.  It takes time, I know.  Bustr has been working on his map for many months, right?  Bustr  likely has a full time job and Isn't working on the map 9-5.  I don't understand why HTC isn't doing this?

Strats are an issue.  They should be extremely difficult to hit and just as hard to supp.  Make them high risk, high effort for a high reward.  Take away the GV spawns.

Speaking of GV's, they are definitely changing the game and I'm not sure it's for the better.  Absolutely no reason to launch a goon when nearly all the fields have a spawn for bum rush of stealth M3's running at full speed to a town that was one pass white flagged by lancs.  The MA has become an arcade game, long live FSO.

I agree with everything here too, good points.

You all think I want to make the game a different way, which is totally false and untrue if you read anything I write. I want to add a better furball area and or make base distance shorter on smaller maps. That's it. Very simple things. 

[cav58d]

I would love to see a trial run of the following changes:

Increase town and all strat hardness to match that of city strat.

Remove all GV spawns from strats.

Increase vehicle identification range.

Double if not triple ords and radar hardness.

I doubt this will draw in new players, but it will definitely make for better MA gameplay and keep the interest of the current player group.

[morfiend]

 SO a FFA close quarter setup is going to promote BFM/ACM...


  A bunch of new players who can barely fly and everyone is a valid target and somehow players are going to learn to fight...


  I would predict a HO fest at the least and the constant whines would drive even more players away.  I could be wrong but doubt that!


  I blame the trainers.....errr wait......



   

[nrshida]

What you and bustr and Fugitive still can't understand is why people run and gang in the MA.

Not understanding and not agreeing are two different things. You tend to argue authoritatively instead of logically. For instance in this thread you've already stated 'I understand furballs better than anybody'. How do you know some people don't understand equally - or better? Even if they do does that mean they uniquely know how to increase player numbers?

I myself don't follow your logic at all how the DA or lack of a more streamlined alternative is responsible for all the evils of AH. The DA worked just fine for me and many others in AH2. Largely as a community in itself but also many of the top sticks would drop into the lake, new players, derusting players. Numbers have reduced significantly across the board and the DA was the first to feel it.

They don't have anywhere to learn or just figure out some basics before they get into the MA.

Just for an alternative I did suggest recently that the TA be made free:-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,386932.0.html

The reasons I've already mentioned is why it's not working.

It's unclear even to me how the new DA works in AH3. I made a free account and while I could go to the furbal bases and select a plane I was unable to take off. I'm assuming the arena settings have changed?

Before suggesting an architectural restructuring, perhaps consider a new player's perspective looking at the official webpage. If you go to the homepage and click on game info, arenas you get this:-
http://www.hitechcreations.com/gameinfo/gameinfo-arenas
Explaining in needless detail how the AH2 arenas were disposed. In fact it's even the old version of that, explaining the coloured splits of the multiple MAs. What's that three years out of date? Four?

People are running away and flying timidly in the MA because they don't want to die quickly after getting to a base and spending 15-20 minutes just to get there.

There's a lot of diversity in beliefs and activities and there should be. You are assuming everyone wants to spend years learning the intricacies of ACM. You must have observed some people play for the challenge / self-development, some for results. To some the game is a serious ego-aligning tool, for others it's just light entertainment. Accomodating everyone would seem to me a more logical way to maximise player numbers.

There has to be away to find quicker fights in AH,

More players? I don't disagree with proposing alternate arenas, even providing a spectrum of these won't fill them though.

[ACE]

The funny thing is hitech has made an arena specifically catered towards people who want instant action. IE -Match Play. It's disguised under the name Dueling Arena. I really can't see violaters point here. His direction is like "I know what's best for this game, listen to me" but what he's wanting is already here it's called match play.

[The Fugitive]

I've already explained why the DA did not work, it is not a FFA, it's team based which causes problems. Again, as I explained to bustr, you are stuck in an illusion that because the DA lake failed, people don't want fast action fighting, but the real reason it failed is because it's a terrible layout that doesn't work.

So are you looking for duels or furballs?

As nrshida said, the DA is setup as match play and you can have 1v1 2v2 or more flight after flight. The old DA WAS a furball setup and you say that doesnt work, so why set it up again?

If your looking for a MA were you can have fights in piece with out others jumping in, forget it. None of this is going to increase fighting or make better play in the game. The game is what it is due to the way "most" players play it. Years ago the players were more into fighting for a base, think the BOPs, the LTARS, and the 444th Air Mafia. Those days there were lots of fights because that is what the majority of players wanted. Score was unimportant, and it was all about the fight. Today the player mentality is more geared toward the kill count (HOs for the WIN!) quick base grabs to roll the map and win the war.

Late last night there was only about 100 players in the MA. Knits and Bish were fighting over bases on the west side of the map (bish had the numbers and a small ENY). Us poor Rooks had nothing to fight. LilMak and I hit the Bish field on the east side of the lake as our CV was closing in. This made the Bish nervous as all hell and they came across the lake to defend. YAAAAAA!!! a fight. Out numbered 2 to 1 we valiant Rooks pressed on! 10 minutes later the Bish sank the CV and everyone left to continue to fight the Knits.

They used the quickest easiest way to STOP a fight  then went back to grabbing bases from the Knits. The majority of players dont want to fight today. We need more players, hopefully some of those WILL want to fight.