The HO

[Arlo]

Personal attacks aren't making your point, sir. I've apologized, edited my posts and even encouraged you to promote the topic in a productive way. Please do. 

(P.S. It's actually common practice to have other eyes go over a dissertation.)

[Delirium]

 

[Arlo]

(Image removed from quote.)

 

For you, Del.



Now back to topic?

[wil3ur]

Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance

There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn.  Those will be learned.

You're welcome

[Wiley]

Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance

There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn.  Those will be learned.

You're welcome

Yup.  Recognizing it is pretty easy.  All you see as they come in is the dot barely appearing to move, and all you see is spinner.  The timing takes practice, but you get plenty of that in the MA most of the time.

Wiley.

[Arlo]

I was flying my D-hog yesterday, from a CV to a base that was pretty quite but had the same 3-4 pilots upping, all obviously pretty green.

One guy kept upping 109's, and on every single merge he would go for the HO. He did this for 3 fights in a row, each fight I could see he was going for the HO, I would fake the return HO and at the last second juke as to make him give up position and allow me to get an instant angles advantage. I shot him down 3 times in a row fairly quickly (one or 2 moves after merge).

Rather than flaming him, I sent him polite PM's over text. I said something along the lines of "when you go for the HO, you are giving up angles right away". He didn't reply, so I figured he was just ignoring me.

The next sortie I see the 109 co alt and go for the merge. Low and behold this 109 flies at me but at about D2.0 start a mellow turn, obviously avoiding the HO, then a split S right before we merge to try to get on my 6. No way can this be the same guy I think, but sure enough after a few more moves I shoot him down and it is the same guy!

I send him another PM saying "see how that fight lasted longer", and offered some advice for him to try to gain an E advantage after the merge by using a climbing move.

Next I see his 109, we merge and he passes close without firing (understands mutual respect on the HO now?), and goes for a gentle immelman (exactly what I had been doing in our past fights).  Now on our secondary merge (the first one we've had) we are on another HO at co E, and again he passes and tries to maneuver for angles. Holy crap I think to myself, I have an actual fight! This time our fight lasts a few minutes and goes to the deck, where I finally out turn him. I almost felt like giving him the kill to reward him, but I just couldn't do it so I put him out of his misery with a bunch of .50cals to the cockpit. 

Now here in just about 30 minutes this guy went from blindly HOing and then getting killed on every flight, to actually making a good first pass and offering a challenge. He never pm'd me back (maybe he didn't know how), but I could tell just by his flying and progression that he was having more fun. This has been one of my more fun moments in AH in recent memory. This guy went from being the typical HO dweeb that offered little or no challenge, to actually giving me a good fight and making me work hard. This is what AH is all about, progression, learning, and getting better at ACM.

<S> to the other pilot, if you are reading this I'm sure you know who you are. Great fights and keep it up, I can tell you will be an ACE soon! 

[Arlo]

After 3+ years, I'm starting to love HO threads.  In the history of online sims, to paraphrase a famous quote, sort of...  "never have so many, complained so much, about so little."

What people who complain about HO'ing are really saying is... "I had a different outcome in mind, with some dazzling ACM turning and burning on my part, and you following the script I want, to your untimely death.  How dare you do anything to disrupt MY gameplay!"

It's very nice if two opponents decide to engage in a merge without resorting to the HO, but to expect it and then complain the other guy is "not honorable", or a "no skill dweeb" (which he may be if he's new) is the height of childishness.  If you want fairplay and rules, go to the DA.  Otherwise, you're in the best available aerial combat sim possible, which includes your opponent doing anything and everything HE decides he wants to do at the time.  Your job is to expect the unexpected at all times, and counter whatever he does to beat him.

And, in certain situations, where least time to a kill may be imperative (especially when outnumbered), the HO may be the best thing going.  Learn to know when to expect it, like when your opponent is in a 110, or an IL2, or a Niki, a 109G-14 with 20mm gondys, an 190A-8 with 30 & 20mm's, an F4U-C, etc, etc, etc.

My rule of thumb is, anytime you let your plane get in front of my guns expect to get shot at.  I might not, cause HO is 50/50 proposition at best (maybe 55/45 if your in a big gun ride and the other guy isn't) and I prefer the odds to be more like 95/5 in my favor if I can work them that way.  But sometimes I don't have the time, and sometimes the inclination, to work that hard.  I ain't telling you when I will, or when I won't, so be prepared.

[Arlo]

There have been a few HO threads lately in which I stated that I"ll always take the HO and that my success rate at it was high.  Since then I've been more aware of it again while flying and my statement should have been; I'll often take the HO and when I do my success rate is high.

Whats the difference? There's a lot of times I wont take the shot.  Like I said, I've been aware of my tendancies the past few days and been thinking about past engagements and here's a few things I've realized:

If I'm flying a plane I've never or rarely flown before that has cannons my likelyhood to take the HO is at its highest.  I think this is because I want to get a kill and will do it however I can until I figure out what the plane is actually capable of.  I'm sure that noobs take HOs for the same reason and I can't blame them.  As my familiarity with that particular ac develops, my tendancy to take the HO goes down.

In a non-cannon equipped plane I will rarely if ever take a HO shot.  Machine guns just don't cut it for the most part playing the HO game.

Similarily, if I'm in a lighly cannon equipped plane against a heavily cannon equipped plane I probably won't take a HO shot.  No matter what I'm in I'll rarely put myself in front of a FW190-A8 or IL2 for instance, but rather try to work my way behind them or simply leave to find a different fight.  My decision would be reversed if the ac were reveresed.

In a true B'n'Z plane the likelyhood of taking the HO increases as I'm only "in" as I pass through, and, if this is the only shot presented the likelyhood of me taking it is high.  This brings up the HO and run whine but in my estimation, I'm only playing to the strengths of my ac.  Also, the likelyhood of actually putting yourself behind the 9/3 line of, for instance, a turnfighter in a true B'n'Zer if the turnfighter knows your there is almost 0 so the HO or high deflection becomes one of the only ways you'll get the kill.

These are just a few scenarios that I've become more aware of.  I'm sure there are others.  Like any other tactic, it's a split second judgement call and one of many that I make almost instinctively as I approach an enemy ac.

As I've pointed out, getting behind your opponent is sometimes impossible given plane match-ups.  Staying in to fight after the HO pass would sometimes be foolish.

I suspect those who say they never HO or who bring up these other arguments fly only one plane, fight in only one style or rarely face dissimilar ac match-ups.

For me it's just another available option, and sometimes the best option, as I quickly assess the situation.  And my success rate is high primarily because I use it when it's advantageous and don't when it's not and I'd expect most "vets" would do the same.

Hopefully this will be my last post on this topic.

[Arlo]

THE CREATURE WE LOVE TO HATE -  THE HO!

HO's
- are very misunderstood, and actually fairplay and occaisonally even useful, particularly when defensive in a many vs. one engagement.  There are no rules anyway that say you can't or even shouldn't HO.  Anyone who says it's dishonorable is full of whooie!  However, it does NOT gain you any respect when used, nor is it a sign of admirable dogfighting skills.

HO's
- whether they are true HO's, or just appear that way to the other pilot due to lag and inability to see the very small angle that makes it a deflection shot and not an HO, are going to be complained about by those other pilots who are gonna scream when they die.  Ignore it.

HO's
- actually are a 50/50 proposition of either pilot getting a kill, or being killed. They are the fairest, most equal engagement you can be given by the other pilot, and therefore, the worst one to stay in and try to win.

HO's
- if done repeatedly or almost exclusively by a particular pilot, are a sure sign of a bad OR lazy pilot (essentially the same thing) who's gameID should be "Target#325".  More often than not, this is a 1-3 month newb who can't do anything else, or a semi-vet (3-6 months) who doesn't really care to learn ACM and is just whacking his plane up there for the fun of it.

HO's
- can, with roughly +95% probability, be avoid no matter how hard the other pilot wants to face blast you, if you know how. 

HO's
- by other pilots then become a good thing for you, a happy thing that you want to see occur as often as possible, as you can now kill them 95% of the time (instead of 50/50) and you die less in the doing.

HO's
- can be avoided very easily with a little knowledge and practice.  Once knowing thoroughly how and why to avoid the HO AND get the kill, to die thereafter as a result of an HO means you were mentally on autopilot.

HO's
- are used by me anytime I want to or feel I need to, without regard to my opponent's race, creed, color, religious or lifestyle preference, or the whine he serves with his death as he floats to the ground.  However, since learning how to avoid them and still whack the daylights out of the other guy (spoiling his kill is a bonus to killing him masterfully with ACM), I rarily go for the HO anymore.  Defensively yes, offensively no.

I will gladly assist anyone who wishes to learn how to avoid the HO monkey, fake the other guy out, turn round on is 6, and shoot his butt down.

This is my mission in life.  To open the -

Sloehand Remedial Flight School For Reformed HO Monkeys   

[Arlo]

I've found that if you find yourself getting face-shot you really just need to re-adjust your merge a bit. 

Don't merge so close to him that he can get an easy shot on you.  Come in a little to one side, or as I prefer, from a little lower.  I ASSUME that in every merge I will find my opponent trying to HO me.  NEVER assume that they won't.  There are a bunch of sticks in the game that will pass on the HO shot and "fight like a gentleman".  When you find one of those consider yourself lucky, but don't ever assume that the unknown icon is one.

If you merge too far away from your opponent you do open up another bag of pain too, so don't get too extreme.  Just far enough away so he has to dive or turn to get his shot.

That said, I LOVE it when my opponent tries for the face-shot.  It generally means that if I merge looking for an angle's advantage I will have a HUGE head start due to him wasting effort for the face shot.  From what I've seen, the HO bandit will die within 3-5 seconds after his face-shot attempt unless he simply blows through and runs away.

I prefer to merge from under my opponent, a little nose-up, and forcing him to push his stick forward to get a face-shot on me.  He'll red out or lose me under his nose.  I seldom get hit this way (once or twice a month or so...).  I'll dive before the merge so I have some speed to maneuver.
If he actually hits me on the merge, it's simply because I screwed up...

If you merge like this and the guy DOESN'T push down for a shot- STOP! Go to plan "B"!!!  Especially if he goes nose-up.  He knows how to fly and needs a little more "attention".  Beware the "rope" here.

I spend almost all my energy maneuvering for a non-HO shot, regardless of whether it is the 1st, 2nd, or 40th merge.  There are some HO shots I WILL take though.

If I take someone up on a rope (the "loop" you mentioned concerning the 38)(not a loop, BTW), and have misjudged my opponents E state, leaving him still nose-up, I will sometimes shoot him anyway.  Especially if I've roped 2 or 3 planes up, and don't want to waste time setting him up again.  Sometimes I dive on a rope victim that is nose-down, only to find he is actually nose-up.  OOPS!  I might shoot then too.  1v1 in this situation I will 9 times outta 10 not shoot, but instead adjust so he can't shoot me and try again.

2v1, 3v1, 5v1- I'm gonna shoot anyone dumb enough to get in front of me, and fast.  I don't care which way he's pointed.  HO shots aren't gentlemanly- well neither is gangin'!!  If they want to gang you, they deserve what they get.  2v1 I still avoid the HO, until times get desperate.  Mainly because the risk of me taking damage is too high.  Even in a 4 or 5v1 I'm going to avoid them, simply because I do actually plan on winning and don't want to be damaged.  I don't try for the HO, but will take it if offered...

I will also take front-quarter shots, depending on the situation.  I fly only F4U's, often against better turning planes.  I can't stay in a turn-fight too long, and am often presented with shots straight into the cockpit, etc.  Not HO, but they could be pulling toward me, which makes them likely to be "called" HO.   More of an SA issue, really, on the part of the opponent.


MtnMan

[The Fugitive]

Add Lateral Separation
Time a Lead Turn
Drop on 6
Shoot Away
High Yo-Yo if they dive to extend and maintain your E
Attack away from a position of E dominance

There's your ACM for avoiding a HO -- Works almost every time. Takes recognizing the other guy going for the HO and timing your turn.  Those will be learned.

You're welcome

Yes and most of us "old timers" do just that. The point is that a "trainer" was telling a new player to HO. It is a bad way to teach any one to fight. Learning bad habits from the start isnt going to help improve your fighting down the road.

It is far better to teach the list you provided and encourage new players to take their licks and stick with it. As nrshida said putting yourself in front of anyone guns is a poor way to start a fight, but a great to end one.

[Arlo]

Word has it that NrShida has been offered a trainer's slot.

[Arlo]

Very likely a lot of the HO complaints are from ex-aw folks.  In AW the hit probability for a head-on was turned way down, very intentionally, to avoid Joust Warrior and to encourage ACM.  It was still possible to get a HO, but it was really gaming the game because you were banking on pure luck.  So:  HO people were, in a Shane-ism, lamer tard slobberdonkey dweebs, and we still tend to think that thought when we see a HO, even though AH is very different.  What to say, old prejudices die hard.

- oldman

[Arlo]

Last night was the first time I got some quality airtime after my pledge to HO like a PRO.

Mt first attempt at HO'ing was against a B-26, expertly flown and gunned by shotter. I perched myself onto his 11:00 co-alt, about D1.6 in front of him. Swinging my Typhoon into a right-handed bank, I came up into a fast HO about 500yds in front. I missed with my first pass, and when I repeated, he shot me down! <S> Shotter!

Finally, after running into three P-51's of the 13th TAS, I was able, after a fun turnfight(I was in my trusty SpitIX on this sortie), to get into a perfect HO situation with Beemer. True to my pledge, I sprayed faster and with more accuracy than Ron Jeremy on viagra.

I was rewarded by watching Beemer's wing fall off as he went streaking by. I savored the moment, revelling in my new found skill. I sat back in my seat, and smiled a smug, "Stiglr-esque" smile...until my wingless Spitfire plowed into the ground.

Beemer had scored hits as well, you see.   (Image removed from quote.)

Alas, running into three more 13th TAS Mustangs later that night, I was promptly handed my butt before I could manuever into an advantageous HO position.

I will continue to hone my HO skills, and maybe even post a film or two.

------------------
P/O banana
XO 308(Polish) Sqn "City of Cracow" RAF

"Look at me when I HO you!"

[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-11-2000).]

[Arlo]

Protocol dictates that if another plane points his nose at you, you must disengage.

My favorite whine of all time was the spit that did a high G immelman as I was bouncing from high and behind... I killed him before he could get his guns around on me.  Oh the names I was called.

One of my personal favorites 'beliefs' is the "guns cold" expectation some pilots have on a merge.  Its ok to fly really close, but its not fair to shoot.  LOL! that one gets me too.

AKDejaVu