Can we talk about this C-130 crash?

[Ack-Ack]

I still say it's inept/poorly trained Puerto Rican National Guard using handmedown poorly maintained aircraft that will all quietly be pushed under the rug and blamed on weather or wind, or something other than top down mismanagement by the DoD leading to the crash.

We could have an entire fleet of new aircraft with the missing 6 trillion + dollars the Pentagon has "misplaced" since 9/10/2001...   

I'm willing to bet that it had something to due with the repairs the plane underwent in Savannah, probably some airman messed up during maintenance.

[Shuffler]

The simple answer is that some group came into the matrix that did not load the C130 program.

[wil3ur]

The simple answer is that some group came into the matrix that did not load the C130 program.

 

[Vraciu]

I'm willing to bet that it had something to due with the repairs the plane underwent in Savannah, probably some airman messed up during maintenance.

I'll take that bet.   This is likely on the crew, IMHO, and I hate to say it.   

Ultimately, it is better to crash right side up than upside down.   It is drilled into your head from the day you fly your first twin that Vmc is suicide.  Crash straight ahead without power if that's what it takes, but don't depart the airplane.

A C-130 crew should know better.   They had enough control authority to cause a spin.  That means they had enough to prevent it.   (If something else prevented them from doing that I suspect we'll find out.)

[Puma44]

A lot of rush to judgement going on about this.

The accident investigation will reveal the cause.  While serving on a couple of headquarters staff jobs, I’ve been on the inner circle for the investigation and report for several of these.  There’s nothing to be gained by covering up the cause. 

[Vraciu]

A lot of rush to judgement going on about this.

The accident investigation will reveal the cause.  While serving on a couple of headquarters staff jobs, I’ve been on the inner circle for the investigation and report for several of these.  There’s nothing to be gained by covering up the cause.

No doubt about that.   Or that.

I tend to give a lot of leeway to the crew on these things and I usually keep my mouth shut until something solid is discovered...BUT...   I'm leaning toward the crew losing control of a flyable airplane on this one (i.e. departure was avoidable even if crashing was not).   Initial gut instinct.  More often than not that winds up being right--or close to it--in my (purely anecdotal) experience.

[Puma44]

No doubt about that.   Or that.

I tend to give a lot of leeway to the crew on these things and I usually keep my mouth shut until something solid is discovered...BUT...   I'm leaning toward the crew losing control of a flyable airplane on this one (i.e. departure was avoidable even if crashing was not).   Initial gut instinct.  More often than not that winds up being right--or close to it--in my (purely anecdotal) experience.

That’s true a lot of the time.....crew.  But, the video of this after takeoff, descending, lower than normal speed, aggressive roll over, etc makes me wonder about some sort of catastrophic material failure that completely distracted the crew causing them to get well behind the situation. 

The formal investigation will tell the cause.  Regardless, so very tragic. 

[Vraciu]

That’s true a lot of the time.....crew.  But, the video of this after takeoff, descending, lower than normal speed, aggressive roll over, etc makes me wonder about some sort of catastrophic material failure that completely distracted the crew causing them to get well behind the situation. 

The formal investigation will tell the cause.  Regardless, so very tragic.

Yep.  But if that's true it goes back to the first rule: fly the airplane.

It just sucks to see people killed in a domestic repositioning accident when we lose enough already to other things.   (I detest that people are trying to make some sort of political hay out of this, too.   I'll just leave it there.)

[Puma44]

A possibility that this crew was faced with an unflyable aircraft malfunction.

[Vraciu]

A possibility that this crew was faced with an unflyable aircraft malfunction.

Of course. 

[mikeWe9a]

Late to the discussion, but:

There was no computer malfunction that caused this crash, for the simple reason that there is no flight control computer.  The C-130 uses hydro-mechanical flight controls:  Cables go from the primary flight controls to the hydraulic actuators which move the control surfaces.  There are no computers involved and the flight controls do not even need electricity to operate (the rudder control DOES use a signal to change rudder pressure based on flap position, but will operate regardless).

The aircraft climbs out at a speed above the minimum single engine out control speed, and must be able to meet certain performance criteria with one engine out.  There have been rumors of two engines failing, however.  If there WERE two engines out on the same side, or certain single engine malfunctions involving the propeller, the minimum control speed would be higher, and could be higher than the charted climbout speed in many, if not all, cases.  The aircraft may well be unable to maintain altitude if two engines fail (from the -1: "WARNING  Two-engine operation above 120,000 pounds gross weight or at high density altitude is marginal"), while having them both on the same side would greatly increase controllability problems.

The fireball is not excessive for the crash - a C-130 can carry up to 60,000 lbs of JP-8.

v/r

Mike

[Vraciu]

Late to the discussion, but:

<MUNCH>

The aircraft climbs out at a speed above the minimum single engine out control speed, and must be able to meet certain performance criteria with one engine out.  There have been rumors of two engines failing, however.  If there WERE two engines out on the same side, or certain single engine malfunctions involving the propeller, the minimum control speed would be higher, and could be higher than the charted climbout speed in many, if not all, cases.  The aircraft may well be unable to maintain altitude if two engines fail (from the -1: "WARNING  Two-engine operation above 120,000 pounds gross weight or at high density altitude is marginal"), while having them both on the same side would greatly increase controllability problems.

The fireball is not excessive for the crash - a C-130 can carry up to 60,000 lbs of JP-8.

v/r

Mike

The airplane has to be certified to fly in that condition.   If you get below the manufacturer’s designated Vmc speed you’ll lose the ability to maintain heading.   Lots of solutions to that situation that don’t involve loss of control. 

<MUNCH>

Transport category turboprops have to be able to climb out like that with certain gross and net climb gradients, I would guess, and I have no doubt the C-130 can as well, especially since it was sold to the civilian market as the L-100.

[DmonSlyr]

The way I see it, the pilots lost control of being able to control the aircraft. I see really nothing that suggest they tried to level or control the plane at all. Also, while we don't have the videos. It seems eerily similar to what I've heard about the other recent air crashes the week before. How did their planes, helicopters just fall out of the sky?  I will say that there is a huge conspiracy about being able to take over a plane's computer and crashing it. A great example of that is the lady that was exposed by Q who tried to take the 911 people to court, she died soon later in an airplane crash. Obama's birth cert lady who approved it died in an airplane crash. Heinz creator whose John Kerry's wife was married to died in a plane crash. The Kennedy guy's plane. The plane full of doctors that crashed. A plane that crashed recently with some delagates daughter on it. The helicopter over the protest where a woman was killed that crashed with 2 cops on it.  All I'm saying is that there's quite a bit of scary plane/heli crashes with important people that go down. I think it's more than just a coincidence. Just saying.

[Vraciu]

The way I see it, the pilots lost control of being able to control the aircraft. I see really nothing that suggest they tried to level or control the plane at all.

I see it as they did try to level off, which is why they snapped over into a spin.  They go slow and departed the airplane.   That's a pure guess and I can't stand to look at the video more than once--makes me sick to my stomach to see that kind of thing.  I'm glad I've NEVER seen it in real life.

[wil3ur]

Take into account our electronics are all manufactured in china...