"Pantelleria, 1943" scenario-design topic

[Vudu15]

Wrhwk I was never worried about what plane you were flying, it wouldn't much matter what you flew to me. The added range on the Mk8s is what I have the biggest issue with.

[TWCAxew]

Fair enough. If I'm willing to post it, I should allow it to be examined.

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/uncle-sams-spitfires.html
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_spitfire_mkVIII.html
https://ww2-weapons.com/macchi-c-205v-veltro/


Agree Spit IX.

Still think 205's should be added.

Since I am the one who suggested the 205s, I got a bit concerned about balance. I have been comparing the axis planes with the allied planes. And I got to to the conclusion all allied planes are outclassed by the axis planes if we would drop the c202s and replace them with the 205's. In order to balance this one of the P38 sqauds should be replaced by either a spit 9 or 8 Squad. The 190a5 and the 205 are still better than the spits and the 109g2s are pretty close. The 109g2 outclasses the P38G according to what I get back from the stat page (the page might be bugged for me) http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/ahplaneperf/?Itemid=139

Edit: it seems like the g2 is also better than a spit 8 and spit 9 according to the charts.

DutchVII

[Guppy35]

I hate to be THAT guy, but the historian in me would really like to see sources along with claims and quotes. I am guilty of this as well, but now there are many people claiming different things. This way we can see each source that creates the conflict and judge it from a historiographic stand point. Otherwise, we are all just throwing information around and getting no where. We can also avoid this source conflict by looking at it from a different angle:

Would the Spit VIII or Spit IX be better for the event? In my opinion, considering all of the information given and the balance of the event, six Spit IX's is the correct decision.

If we are trying to adhere to the history, then I would agree that the Merlin 61 engined Spit IX in AH is more accurate for the time frame than the Merlin 66 Spit VIII. 

Maybe if the VIII are to stay than the 202s go away and 205s or more 109G6s are added?

[SEseph]

Look, CMs are not the enemy here. We are players just like everybody else and we really want these events to thrive. So that not only you can have fun, but we can have fun as well.

Not the enemy, but the adversary for sure. The issue I see, and have had myself, is the CM team all flying in an event. It's not that we don't want you to enjoy the event, it's that we don't want to feel as though when we bring up issues we see, that the CM assigned to the other side, or the designer, who then shoots down the idea (good or not, makes little difference) many would feel as though you are biased. Maybe have certain members build this event and referee, and the others can fly, then next event, you all switch places. But the issue at hand, the same one I had long ago, Redtail, is it feels like sometimes there is a certain amount of bias (like it or not)

To me, 12 kill marks says it all. So let's get down to some agreement and get on with some registration, shall we?

12 kills means little other than you got 12 kills.
I have 15 kills in one scenario; does that make me suddenly better? (Yes, I did, Ask any PoTW, I'll see if I can dig it up[ in the logs)



***EDIT I lied, it was 13

Top Pilots: Kills
   SEseph (80th FS "Headhunters"): 13

[perdue3]

Fair enough. If I'm willing to post it, I should allow it to be examined.

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/uncle-sams-spitfires.html
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_spitfire_mkVIII.html
https://ww2-weapons.com/macchi-c-205v-veltro/


Agree Spit IX.

Still think 205's should be added.

These are all tertiary sources that do not cite primary sources. Hard to place much credibility on them, sadly.

[Devil 505]

I don't think adding the C.205 will help anything related to balance.

The Spit9 compares very favorably to the 190. No clear advantage for either side here.

The 109G is better than the P-38 in most respects. It's a close matchup, but the advantage here is with the Axis.

The P-40F is a good matchup for the C.202. The 202 has a slight speed advantage and is much superior in terms of climb/acceleration and turning. The P-40 is better in the dive and has a huge advantage in firepower.

The P-40F may seem worse, but is more useful. It's utility helps to close the gap between the 109 and P-38.

The C.205 completely dominates the P-40 in terms of speed and climb, while still being better in the turn. The 20mm cannons remove the one true advantage the P-40.

[SEseph]

These are all tertiary sources that do not cite primary sources. Hard to place much credibility on them, sadly.

https://ospreypublishing.com/peter-antill

He is the author of one. I checked his credentials and what not. I always do. It's how to write a good paper. Just the face of it is irrelevant. Gotta dig.

Martin Waligorski

He is a contributor to many historical journals and magazines, as well as the awards his site (the one I referenced). So third party, maybe, but not from any John Doe, these are credentialed men in the field.


This is like telling James McPherson when his gives you a fact about the US War of Rebellion that he has to source his facts or you don't believe him...

[KCDitto]

So Devil, you also vote for the Spit 9 over the 8?

8f longer range is the only issue, to me that is a non issue.

[swareiam]

Wrhwk I was never worried about what plane you were flying, it wouldn't much matter what you flew to me. The added range on the Mk8s is what I have the biggest issue with.

Vudu,

To be honest, what it is going to come down to is the pilot sitting in the seat of what aircraft.

In Tunisia, on one particular mission, I got into a twist with Trogdor in my P-40F. During the merge I had the upper hand on him. But because of his recovery from my mistake and knowledge of his aircraft, he bested me and did a really great job at killing me. My hats off to Trogdor. 

There were at least six of twelve other "fighter Kills" that I didn't screw up.

Let's stop worrying so much about the small and minute advantages of one aircraft over another and starting looking at who's going to be sitting in these seats.

The man in the seat is the real story, not so much what's under the cowling.

or more poignantly;

"The man makes the suit, the suit doesn't make the man."

[KCDitto]

So the Spit 8 has 10 min more fuel than the 109 G6. If they go with a full bag.

Remember, we have air spawns...... full bag at a fuel setting at 1 at 25k will last the entire frame. Minus combat time of course.

I just don't see the big deal, let them fight with 70 min fuel load as far as I am concerned.

[Vudu15]

Vudu,

To be honest, what it is going to come down to is the pilot sitting in the seat of what aircraft.

In Tunisia, on one particular mission, I got into a twist with Trogdor in my P-40F. During the merge I had the upper hand on him. But because of his recovery from my mistake and knowledge of his aircraft, he bested me and did a really great job at killing me. My hats off to Trogdor. 

There were at least six of twelve other "fighter Kills" that I didn't screw up.

Let's stop worrying so much about the small and minute advantages of one aircraft over another and starting looking at who's going to be sitting in these seats.

The man in the seat is the real story, not so much what's under the cowling.

or more poignantly;

"The man makes the suit, the suit doesn't make the man."

Glossed over where you and a wingman lost to me on the deck I was in a 110. You angered and I killed your wingman. You did get ROC though so I guess thats like half a kill.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk

[Devil 505]

So Devil, you also vote for the Spit 9 over the 8?

8f longer range is the only issue, to me that is a non issue.

Yes.

The Spit8 also has advantages in greater speed and climb/acceleration. I feel that these attributes tip the balance too much over the 190.

[Brooke]

OK, with all that under consideration, here's what I propose.

We change allies from Spit 8's to Spit 9's.  We give the allies 2 more Spits.

This accounts for Spit 8 being faster on WEP, turning better, climbing better, and having 20 minutes more time aloft compared to Spit 9, and for 109G's being slightly better than P-38G's. 

JeffN, Weiser, Swareiam, and Ditto -- what say you?

If you don't like that, how about 4 more Spits?

[Brooke]

I'm completely not in favor of changing C.202's into C.205's because there were way more C.202's than C.205's and because that would be highly unbalancing.  (I think there might even have been more C.200's than C.205's, but I don't think the axis will be requesting C.200's.)

If axis wants C.205's, it would require removing some 109G's and replacing them with C.205's.  I'm not sure I'm in favor of that, but I guess I'm not completely against it -- haven't thought a lot about it.

[Devil 505]

OK, with all that under consideration, here's what I propose.

We change allies from Spit 8's to Spit 9's.  We give the allies 2 more Spits.

This accounts for Spit 8 being faster on WEP, turning better, climbing better, and having 20 minutes more time aloft compared to Spit 9, and for 109G's being slightly better than P-38G's. 

JeffN, Weiser, Swareiam, and Ditto -- what say you?

If you don't like that, how about 4 more Spits?

Is there a typo in here?

The solution adding 4 spits because there is opposition to adding 2 makes no sense.

Needs clarification.