christchurch

[Arlo]

Human nature.  For there to be an "us," there also has to be a "them," otherwise the "us" becomes meaningless.

Uh, no. There really can be an us with no them and it is quite meaningful. Think about it. Humans are a communal species (even with non-humans). 'Them' thinkers are dividers looking for a reason for division. It's radicalization of rationality (turning it into rationalization). Extremists need a 'them.'

[Shuffler]

It always saddens me that people identify with "tribes".

It would probably become easier to understand if you were ever placed in a position of survival. Since the beginning of time humans and animals group together for survival.

[Arlo]

It would probably become easier to understand if you were ever placed in a position of survival. Since the beginning of time humans and animals group together for survival.

Alas, not being on a deserted island with limited food/resources you would think precludes such mentality. Grouping together for survival can also be done without inventing a threat to do so. Being a student of what the Nazis did to grab power in Germany (literally, in a university setting) scapegoating was used for political survival, not literal survival. So it was fear mongering such as "the Jews stabbed us in the back' and "Jews are poisoning our pure Aryan bloodline" that was used to divide (and conquer). Anything can be radicalized and in doing so the real 'them' threatens society, in general. Extremists are the real 'them.' And if they went away, we would be left with .... us.

[Shuffler]

Yes... and just because some use it in a negative way does not preclude others from using it for survival.


A group of one stands a tall chance of running into one of those groups that use their power for evil.

Nothing is perfect.

[Arlo]

I'm not saying I'm not pragmatic. Hell, Kelly and I talk about 'what ifs' should society collapse and whatnot (knowing full well that there will be those who are more into taking what you have whether you'll share or not). But looking for reasons to hate entire groups of people is destructive and should not be encouraged.

[Vulcan]

An update...

We are now up to 50 deaths, an extra body that had others on top of it was discovered after police started removing bodies. There are 50 people in hospital, 36 with series injuries, 2 who are critical. There are children as young as 3 in 4 in hospital that have been shot. Police have not released a list of the victims yet, there is an unofficial list so that families can confirm the deaths of loved ones. There are children among the dead.

It was a single gunman, other arrests during the crisis were unrelated. The gunman had 5 guns, 2 semi-autos, 1 lever action, and 2 shotguns. There were also explosives recovered in his vehicle. The gunman had no criminal history. He is an Australian, who has been in and out of NZ over the last couple of years. According to his manifesto he came to NZ to train for an attack he was going to carry out in Australia, but for unknown reasons decided to do it here.

The two cops that captured him committed an extreme act of bravery (imho), they deduced he was likely going to a 3rd location (my guess is that was a 3 mosque in the north of the city) - rammed his vehicle on the driver side door - he may have received a rifle butt to the face to encourage co-operation. In the arrest video it looks like he popped his rear door open possibly intending to grab a gun from the back.

It sounds like he made a lot of money in the Bitconnect ponzi scheme. This funded his travels, vehicles, and firearms.

In NZ we do not have the death penalty, and a life sentence is not really life. But we do have a preventative detention law, which will be used assuming he is not evaluated as insane.

[zack1234]

All crimminals are insane

[SysError]

I am assuming that this story has been vetted.

48 year old went after gunman with a credit card scanning machine, chased him unarmed through a parking lot weaving through cars, tired using a discarded weapon that turned out to be spent, and smashed the gunman’s car window causing him to flee.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/17/come-here-the-man-who-chased-away-the-christchurch-shooter

[Vulcan]

I think he was one of the extra 3 arrested then released by the sounds of things.

[MiloMorai]

A minor blip in the media, https://www.christianpost.com/news/120-people-killed-140-homes-destroyed-by-nigeria-fulani-since-february.html

[Lusche]

A minor blip in the media, https://www.christianpost.com/news/120-people-killed-140-homes-destroyed-by-nigeria-fulani-since-february.html

The one is in Nigeria, the other happen in NZ. Killings in countires like that get relatively little coverage, unless it's happening to someone like tourists from western countries.
A muslim extremist doing the same thing in NZ would have the same massive coverage as the current events over there do.

[1stpar3]

True Snailman, also not all Muslims are created evil You know what I mean? As I understand it Vulcan, these were refugees who left for safety? Once in NZ they acclimated and took in more recent refugees from Syria and other places and WERE NOT the radicalized branch of Islam? Like with most all races and religions, I get along with most and have no need for the others. Still cant understand the hate some folk have. I could almost understand it if NZ had major terrorist actions going on from this group, but I never heard of any. As I read some reports, they have been there,some of them for several years without a problem. Hope they can come out of this without more problems

[Vulcan]

True Snailman, also not all Muslims are created evil You know what I mean? As I understand it Vulcan, these were refugees who left for safety? Once in NZ they acclimated and took in more recent refugees from Syria and other places and WERE NOT the radicalized branch of Islam? Like with most all races and religions, I get along with most and have no need for the others. Still cant understand the hate some folk have. I could almost understand it if NZ had major terrorist actions going on from this group, but I never heard of any. As I read some reports, they have been there,some of them for several years without a problem. Hope they can come out of this without more problems

NZ has a fairly small Muslim population. So these Mosques tend to be attended by all corners of Islam  - Afghans, Ethiopians, Indonesians, ,Malaysians, Pakistani's, Syrians and so forth. Plus we have 2nd 3rd and even old generation Muslims. There are many refugee families that are 1st generation Kiwis, and some of the 2nd and 3rd generation kiwis families were refugees from places like Iran.

The only radicals NZ has had have been the oddball fruitcake that has gone of to join ISIS - and those few have been of caucasian ethnicity (ie Kiwis who converted to Islam from online sources, not local Mosques or anything). We've got one fat f**k in syria who wants to come home, and our government though they cannot cancel his citizenship did a "Yeah nah, we don't have any resources near syria mate, thanks for calling byyyye".

My boss is Muslim, she is caucasian and absolutely awesome - and I would not want to mess with her - she is a strong lady whom I have nothing but respect for (she is also an avid Doctor Who fan). The muslim community is part of NZ, possibly even more so from the public reaction we have had here. I guess it helps in a horrible way that the shooter is an Australian.

[guncrasher]

you know what bugs me is that people are saying well, this happened here and nobody says anything, my question is then how did you find out?  this is how i see it, my mother beat the crap out of me, i was hard on my kids but nowhere as vicious as my mother.  only grand kids i have is my daughter is she has never even raised her voice to her kids and they are well adjusted.  so when do we stop.  was i right with my kids?  was my mom right with me? or my is daughter right with her kids.  when do we stop the insanity?  edit: is not when but who will stop the insanity?

I understand the hate i have for my mother and well to i understand the sometimes distrust my kids have with me. but when is enough enough?  when do we stop saying well this guy killed somebody so all his neighbors must be punished. even though his neighbors dont agree with him, they wished he had been aborted at birth just like the rest of us.  when is enough enough?


semp

[Shuffler]

you know what bugs me is that people are saying well, this happened here and nobody says anything, my question is then how did you find out?  this is how i see it, my mother beat the crap out of me, i was hard on my kids but nowhere as vicious as my mother.  only grand kids i have is my daughter is she has never even raised her voice to her kids and they are well adjusted.  so when do we stop.  was i right with my kids?  was my mom right with me? or my is daughter right with her kids.  when do we stop the insanity?  edit: is not when but who will stop the insanity?

I understand the hate i have for my mother and well to i understand the sometimes distrust my kids have with me. but when is enough enough?  when do we stop saying well this guy killed somebody so all his neighbors must be punished. even though his neighbors dont agree with him, they wished he had been aborted at birth just like the rest of us.  when is enough enough?


semp

I think the feelings come from when the known radicals living among a group are not pointed out and allowed to mingle in until they do their dirty deeds in many cases causes the balance of the people to be blamed.