Author Topic: fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?  (Read 4614 times)

Offline TRiMmer

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
Well, a couple of things I would like to mention.  The F4U-1C is fun to fly, but there are quite a few things that I believe are incorrect about it in AH.

From AHT page 507, "The first production models, -1,-1A,and -1C had a much modified arrangement.  Here the primary fuel tank was a protected installation in the fuselage just ahead of the cockpit with 237 gallons capacity.  Addded to this were two unprotected internal wing tanks each of 62 gallons, making a total of 361 internal gallons.  These models could also carry a centerline external tank of 175 gallon capacity.  Another major fuel arrangement change was affected in the -1D Corsair variant where wing internal tanks were eliminated, making the total internal capicity just a 237 gallon fuselage tank.  But more external drop tank fuel was added in the -1D.  Two 150 gallon external tanks could be carried on wing inboard store stations."

If this source is correct, the fuel on our 1C is incorrect.  Another table summarizes it with the 1c having maximum internal fuel of 361 gallons and maximum external of 175 gallons.  A 1D had 237 gallons internal and maximum external of 300 gallons(2x150 gallon wing tanks).

As far as weight goes, it refers to an empty weight of the F4U-1 being 8982 lbs, and the 1D being 8971 lbs.  I do not know if 4x20mm and ammo weigh more than 6x.50s and ammo, but the correct weight should be the 8982 lbs. with a correction for guns and ammo change.  It goes on to state that weight with maximum internal fuel of a 1C is 12,835 lbs and the 1D is 11,962 lbs, BUT that is with the 1C carrying 361 gallons and the 1D carrying 237 gallons.  The -1C weighed in at 12,039 with just the internal 237 gallons of fuel.  Also, we need to account for gun/ammo weight differences, and I cannot seem to find where a 1A/1C could carry 2x1Ks.

AHT has alot of engine performance data as well.  Summarizing their data, the 1C should not climb or go as fast as a 1D at all altitudes.  The 1C has a less powerful engine.  I can scan and post the charts for those that are interested.

Anyway, the 1C perk/no perk, dweeb/skill, blah blah blah seems to go on forever.  The plane was unblancing the arena.  It has more ammo for those 4x20mms than any other plane, and it seems the fuel, ordinance, weight, and power settings need to be revisted.  AHT is only one source.  I am not waving it like the bible or ten commandments.  I just feel that some of these things need to be brought up.

<S>

trm

Offline Kweassa

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2001, 12:12:00 PM »
I know this 'crusade' between pro-Luftwaffe and Anti-Luftwaffe has been going on more than I can imagine, and as a 3rd man, who (thankfully) lacks any kind of anger or frustration towards any of you people(the sort which might cloud any kind of judgement perhaps?), I think I can comment on this one pretty objectively..

 I think every little part of what people have commented upon the C-Hog easily sums up and resonates into the conclusion that the C-Hog has turned into a VERY popular plane, and I don't think anyone can doubt that.

 I must say this:

 The F4U-1C has two kinds of strengths.. one is absolute and material strength which might be represented as figures and numbers, and the other is a immaterial, circumstantial, tactical strength, which cannot be presented in any kind of figures or charts.. but can be read and analyzed by looking at the current 'facts' and 'trends' of AH MA.

 I think being out turned, out climbed, out accelerated by many planes in abolute figures doesn't have to necessarily mean that the F4U-1C is therefore, in aspect a 'non-whinable normal plane', sirs.

 I think the C-Hog is a very circumstantial plane which despite its weak points, the overall circumstances of AH MA has molded up and multiplied its strong points.
 
 It is out turned by many planes. But under the Carrier based Airfield raid conditions, do you really need to turn that much? Or require a good turning ability?

 It is out climbed by many planes. But under same conditions the majority of battles in MA is performed, do you really need to climb that much? Up to say, 20k?

 It is out accelerated by many planes. But as with the situations I have stated above, base raids are either "VULCH" or "RUN". You don't need to worry about accelration much when you have 7~8 more guys than defenders. You don't have to worry about just about anything when you are vulching.. If you are on the run, the Hog is a fast plane. Just dive a little and head straight back to CV and the odds are, base defense planes (majority being Spits) won't catch you.

 The thing is, under MA circumstances, most of the times the C-Hog is NEVER in a condition where you might have to worry about its weak points. But on the other hand, it's speed, it's roll rate, it's sturdiness and ordanance load out, the fact that it's a carrier-based plane, the power of the guns, it's multi-role capability, plus maybe 600lbs less weight than usuall.. All it's strengths have summed up into just more than a normal 'total'.

 It's weaknesses, I think, don't mean ANYTHING since we are not fighting in an environment it's weaknesses would present themselves naturally..  

 I mean if we are to meet a squad of C-Hogs fighting a squad of G-10s at 22K, the relative slow speed, bad rate of climb would kick into factor. If C-Hogs were to meet a band of Spitfires at co-alt the good turns, fast dive capabilities, good zooming, good climb of Spitfires might give the Hogs a hard time. If C-Hogs were to meet La-7s co alt at about 10K, faster speed and accelerations would drive C-hogs nuts..

 But we don't have many of those situations.. and so, we don't get many chance to see the weaknesses of F4U-1C ever meaning anything. F4U-1C doesn't need to turn, doesn't need to climb, doesn't need to accelerate like other planes, at least not while MA is like this.

 Some people ask for 'material facts' to a question which cannot be answered that way, and I don't think that is right.

 Asking for material facts against the contempt spread over the LW population concerning the Hispano cannons would be appropriate. But denying the reality which cannot be translated into material facts is also wrong. After all, no one still has answered the question: "WHY IS THE F4U-1C IS SO MUCH POPULAR?"

 It can not be answered with one word like "cannon", but neither can the question be pushed away and ignored with the same ol' same ol' "There's nothing wrong with it" or "WHINE AGAIN! YOU WHINERS".

Offline Kweassa

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »
Sorry. long post, but need some summarizing.

 I think the Anti-LW people are right in asking hard facts against the Hispano issue. I shake my head and can't quite understand how a single ping, no matter how powerful a cannon is, can rip out the entir rear hind, or blow out planes from d1.2. But, I have to admit numerous testimonies between pilots are contradictory, and there isn't much data to explain how the Hispano REALLY was, except charts and data tested from the official authorities. Hard evidence is hard to find.

 But, I also think the Pro-LW guys have instinctively also noticed what many people like me have noticed, the "circumstantial", or "relative" strength given to the C model Corsair which is almost the greatest compared to other aircraft in this aspect(people who point out the A2A, A2G capabilities are essentially realizing what I realize(but phrase it differently), too).

 Just like there is something special about Mart, there is something special about the C-Hog. It may not be the guns like LW guys insist, but there definately is something, contrary to what Anti-LW guys say.

Offline Hooligan

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
The weight difference is not 600lbs anyway.

A long time ago Pyro said that the AH chog weighed about 200lbs less than the dhog.  Later F4UDOA dug up some nice navy documents which showed empty/loaded weights of the 1c and 1d being 9000/12470 and 9014/12175.  There is still a mystery to the weight thing since the 1c seems to gain 320 lbs more than the 1d during loading which is odd because it doesn't carry more gas and it carries less weight in ammo (The 4 cannons in the 1c weigh more than the 6 MGs in the 1d but 924 rounds of 20mm weighs less than 2350 rounds of .50).  So an empty 1C should weigh more than an empty 1D just because of the guns, but in fact it weighs less so there is something else going on.  Likewise loading a 1C should add less weight since the only apparent loading difference is the ammunition but the navy documents show otherwise.  Even if the 1C is 450 to 500 lbs too light (not 600), these same documents give the F4U C and D about 10% better climb (and thus acceleration and sustained turn) than they have in AH so if Pyro changes the FM based on this data, the 1C’s performance will IMPROVE.

Hooligan

Offline TRiMmer

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2001, 01:03:00 PM »
<S> Hooli,

The weight diff is not 600lbs, that is correct.  But, the 1C is a 1A with cannon, whose engine produces less hp than the one in a 1D.  The 1C we have does not seem to be modeled that way, it's performance should be slightly less if anything.  Not to mention the fuel differences I posted earlier.

trm

Offline AKDejaVu

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2001, 02:25:00 PM »
Trimmer, I do believe that the 1C we use was co-developed with the 1D and is not necessarily a 1A with cannons.

AKDejaVu

Offline laz

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »
lol.. whyd u call me a minni me tac??   :confused:   :p   :p   :p . So now how about you guys stop crying and go play so i can shoot you down  :), and i will do it with a chog  :D

Offline TRiMmer

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2001, 03:14:00 PM »
Deja <S>,

With all due respect, I have seen sources that say otherwise, including America's Hundred Thousand and some others that may not be as reliable.

trm

[edit] Oh, I see, the one we use in AH you mean, not the 200 that were built.

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: TRiMmer ]

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: TRiMmer ]

Offline Hooligan

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »
Trimmer:

There is conflicting data about the genesis of the 1C and what engine it mounted.  F4UDOA found some Navy docs that claim it is a 1D equipped with cannons.  "The F4U-1C is too heavy" argument is based on the 1D genesis, loaded weight of 12470 lbs, 237 gallons max internal fuel figures from these documents.  If the 1C is indeed a 1A with cannons then it probably isn't too heavy, but it needs more fuel capacity.

F4UDOA's documents are posted on the web somewhere but I can't find the link.  If you would like me to email you the information please let me know what your email address is.

Hooligan

Offline TRiMmer

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2001, 03:34:00 PM »
<S> All,

I give up, after reading more than I care to about the plane.  It does seem to have differing specs, but I do believe the fuel is wrong on the one we have in AH.  The fuel capacity should be as I posted earlier, exactly as a -1 -1A.  The rest of it seems too unclear, and I retract any observations I made. See ya up!  :)

trm

Offline Tac

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »
"WHY IS THE F4U-1C IS SO MUCH POPULAR"

CANNONS  ;) :D

You have listed all the truths as to why the plane, its flying characteristics is not "uber". its not. Its the guns. Those 22k 109's would find themselves in serious trouble at 22k with quick-rolling and amazing rudder capability hogs spewing 1 ping death. Get a 50 fuel hog vs a 100 fuel chog to make up for the weight difference, give equal pilots... chog has the best chance of winning.

Offline Toad

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
Oh, so it's not 600 lbs?

Then revise the theoretical error percents as follows:

Empty error ~ 5%

Loaded error ~ 3.6%


Oh, and those of you who are asserting the "one ping kill" capabilities of the -1C....

can the rest of us see the film?

What? Forgot to turn it on yet AGAIN? NONE of you has FILM?    :D

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKSWulfe

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:
<RAM crawls out of the shades for a second>

Seawulfe, I would like to see if you had the guts to say that kind of insulting BS face to face with the one you are insulting. I would like it because:

1-I'm sure you wont be "man" enough to say that kind of crap in front of the one you are insulting. In wich case you are an useless coward who only barks like you do because you are after a screen.

2-I'm sure that, if you were, sooner or later you would meet someone who would put a nice black eye in your face    ;). In wich case you are a stupid antisocial guy who is idiot enough to get his face broken just for not knowing to respect others' opinion.

In short words: either you are a coward or an idiot...just tell it to the open so we (at least me) can definitely classify you as either of each on (well, there is always the chance that you are both, in that case I'm sorry bout you    :))

<RAM crawls back to the shades again>

Oh no! It's the whiney BBS jockey here to tell me about how much of a p*ssy I am in real life! Hey jackhole, you are the one monitoring the BBS on the WEEKENDS!

If you think I'm either of the above, you are dead wrong.. but I've got nothing to prove you. Your so damn whiney I would of slapped your face off your head in real life.

Stop crying to me, you don't even play AH anymore... maybe you should move right on along, the only thing you ever contribute is a complaint or a whine.

You got little man syndrome?
-SW

Offline Tac

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2001, 06:04:00 PM »
Toad, you must be related to Jerry Springer.. I know this is true..somehow..must be  ;)

Offline Toad

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fu4c is that really a dweeb plane ?
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2001, 06:27:00 PM »
Well, Tac... do I remind you of him because you been one of the panelists on his show and you got to know him?  ;)

Post that "one ping" film, Tac. You must have 1000's of those by now. Love to see it.  :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!