Author Topic: Another 737 down  (Read 33457 times)

Offline ACE

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #120 on: May 13, 2019, 12:55:14 PM »
Well, I don't pretend to be an expert on chiller design and operation.


As I do not claim to be an expert in your field. Just merely giving my opinion exactly like you and everyone else has done.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2019, 01:15:54 PM »
In the end y’all are totally right in saying the pilots messed up. I’ve said that since more info came about. But to sit and say the plane is totally fine is down right wrong. They had a malfunction, Boeing probably new this would happen so they put a bandaid(a cutoff switch) to help the problem. That’s wrong you may not agree and that’s fine but the people that have died due to that exact issue would probably have something different to say about it.

The “CUTOFF” switches have been in every 737 since day one.  The switches are not a “bandaid”.  They are designed for the pilots to stop a runaway malfunction.  Used properly and in accordance with the Non Normal Checklist, the switches will help the pilots prevent a tragic situation from occurring.   The pilots in these two incidents apparently did not comply with the NNC and as a result, were the first to arrive at the scene of the crash.



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2019, 01:24:23 PM »
V that last sentence from the manual is pretty confusing. Is it saying that the column cutout doesn't stop MCAS commanded forward trim if the F/O is pulling while the Captains side does? Or is it saying the reverse? Or neither?

I’ll have to defer to the 737 experts.   The column cutout switches for normal stab trim respond to column movement.   That’s likely been the same forever.    MCAS overrides the F/O column [position] cutout because it is the one that interfaces with the FCC.    That’s how I read it. 

« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 01:31:11 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline ACE

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2019, 01:27:53 PM »
The “CUTOFF” switches have been in every 737 since day one.  The switches are not a “bandaid”.  They are designed for the pilots to stop a runaway malfunction.  Used properly and in accordance with the Non Normal Checklist, the switches will help the pilots prevent a tragic situation from occurring.   The pilots in these two incidents apparently did not comply with the NNC and as a result, were the first to arrive at the scene of the crash.

Sure. To carry on here would you agree to fix the issue? Or just keep on rolling til it happens again. Whether in your opinion more training or simply add more AOA sensors. In my opinion both are needed. Obviously more training and secondly fix the damn software bug. Thankfully I believe the Corp will do both.

Edit: when I say more training I mean more for the inexperienced crews overseas. I think the US has plenty of standards in place for this type of accident to not happen granted again imo the software issue should be fixed before being allowed to fly again. In no way am I shaming our pilots or any of you in this thread. Just generalizing the word.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 01:31:35 PM by ACE »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #124 on: May 13, 2019, 01:28:33 PM »
The “CUTOFF” switches have been in every 737 since day one.  The switches are not a “bandaid”.  They are designed for the pilots to stop a runaway malfunction.  Used properly and in accordance with the Non Normal Checklist, the switches will help the pilots prevent a tragic situation from occurring.   The pilots in these two incidents apparently did not comply with the NNC and as a result, were the first to arrive at the scene of the crash.

As it is with most large jet airplanes.

Two examples on which I am current and serve/have served as an instructor:

Embraer 145/Legacy 600, 650

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397004.msg5264456.html#msg5264456

Falcon 900

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397004.msg5264458.html#msg5264458

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2019, 01:33:18 PM »
The desicant is generally on the gas/low pressure side. Desiccant removes moisture which causes the gas to become acidic and eat the system up from the inside.
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Offline ACE

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2019, 01:39:11 PM »
The desicant is generally on the gas/low pressure side. Desiccant removes moisture which causes the gas to become acidic and eat the system up from the inside.

Negative on installing it and leaving it on the low pressure side. You only want to install it on the low pressure side after a burnout IE acid is introduced into the system. You then would go back 2 weeks later and remove it. And install a new one before the TXV. You could leave it on the low side if you wanted. But in less than a year you’d be changing a compressor due to that exact filter being clogged causing a shortage of superheated vapor to your vapor pump that relies on cool gas to cool it down.

Go take a look at the units outside of your home. I’d be willing to bet they are exactly the same as all the ones in my area. Here we install them on the liquid line. Can show several install pics of units if you’d like. Even some that are extremely old just to show it’s always been installed on the liquid side of the system.

Texas, assuming your profile is still correct may have different codes than I do which would make a big difference in system performance.


For your eyes shuffler. https://www.google.com/amp/s/hvacrschool.com/proper-liquid-line-drier-location/amp/
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:10:26 PM by ACE »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2019, 02:22:03 PM »
Do you realize how many systems there are for refridgerant? Also different gasses. We can get into heavy cooling. Up to now I have been describing small systems with light gas. All basically the same but there are some differences when you get into heavier gas.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #128 on: May 13, 2019, 02:23:45 PM »
Sure. To carry on here would you agree to fix the issue? Or just keep on rolling til it happens again. Whether in your opinion more training or simply add more AOA sensors. In my opinion both are needed. Obviously more training and secondly fix the damn software bug. Thankfully I believe the Corp will do both.

Edit: when I say more training I mean more for the inexperienced crews overseas. I think the US has plenty of standards in place for this type of accident to not happen granted again imo the software issue should be fixed before being allowed to fly again. In no way am I shaming our pilots or any of you in this thread. Just generalizing the word.

The “fix” is, and would have been, for Boeing to be up front with the operators and provide the training documents from the git go.  No doubt Boeing is going to get a huge bloody nose from hiding this info, not to mention 💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵s in lawsuits.  The experts in the media and politics have bad mouthed and grounded the airframe, when in reality it was poor pilot performance.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:27:55 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Puma44

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #129 on: May 13, 2019, 02:26:02 PM »
Do you realize how many systems there are for refridgerant? Also different gasses. We can get into heavy cooling. Up to now I have been describing small systems with light gas. All basically the same but there are some differences when you get into heavier gas.

Negative on installing it and leaving it on the low pressure side. You only want to install it on the low pressure side after a burnout IE acid is introduced into the system. You then would go back 2 weeks later and remove it. And install a new one before the TXV. You could leave it on the low side if you wanted. But in less than a year you’d be changing a compressor due to that exact filter being clogged causing a shortage of superheated vapor to your vapor pump that relies on cool gas to cool it down.

Go take a look at the units outside of your home. I’d be willing to bet they are exactly the same as all the ones in my area. Here we install them on the liquid line. Can show several install pics of units if you’d like. Even some that are extremely old just to show it’s always been installed on the liquid side of the system.

Texas, assuming your profile is still correct may have different codes than I do which would make a big difference in system performance.


For your eyes shuffler. https://www.google.com/amp/s/hvacrschool.com/proper-liquid-line-drier-location/amp/




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Offline ACE

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #130 on: May 13, 2019, 02:36:41 PM »
Do you realize how many systems there are for refridgerant? Also different gasses. We can get into heavy cooling. Up to now I have been describing small systems with light gas. All basically the same but there are some differences when you get into heavier gas.
Doesn’t change the basic principal of cleaning the system. You want it after the pump not before. Only before, after acidic refrigerant has been introduced. By then it’s already to late.

Let’s not derail any further. If you’d like to learn more we can PM about it.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #131 on: May 13, 2019, 02:36:55 PM »
Jeez guys when someone disagrees with what you say y’all get all in a tizzy and immediately resort to name calling and trying to talk down to someone( really shows the maturity here).

Shuffler, nice write up on the AC theory. You have your filter in the wrong spot however.. it’ll work on both sides but you really want it on the liquid side as it’s better for flow and actually catching debris. It’s kind of funny how that relates to this thread. You see, in my world we put multiple sensors(or filters) where one could do the job. It’s called a fail safe and it keeps the unit alive and working. Obviously some engineer or higher power at Boeing called for less AOA sensors on the MAX.

In the end y’all are totally right in saying the pilots messed up. I’ve said that since more info came about. But to sit and say the plane is totally fine is down right wrong. They had a malfunction, Boeing probably new this would happen so they put a bandaid(a cutoff switch) to help the problem. That’s wrong you may not agree and that’s fine but the people that have died due to that exact issue would probably have something different to say about it. .

The reason Boeing and the FAA signed off on the current procedures is because the current training is sufficient for the pilots to respond properly.

If maintenance had fixed the known bad sensor the pilots wouldn't have been tested that time.

Of course Boeing will try to make it harder for pilots to screw up. They have the greatest interest in preventing Boeing crashes.

We can wish for higher quality pilots but the Ethiopian report is clear that the pilots had been signed off on the required training and standards. That's a cultural problem we can't fix.

Offline ACE

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2019, 02:44:11 PM »
The reason Boeing and the FAA signed off on the current procedures is because the current training is sufficient for the pilots to respond properly.

If maintenance had fixed the known bad sensor the pilots wouldn't have been tested that time.

Of course Boeing will try to make it harder for pilots to screw up. They have the greatest interest in preventing Boeing crashes.

We can wish for higher quality pilots but the Ethiopian report is clear that the pilots had been signed off on the required training and standards. That's a cultural problem we can't fix.
Why not add more sensors? Instead of just 1 or even 2 why not more? As far as I know they utilize just 1 sensor correct? If so why? That’s horrible engineering practice to have something that impacts the plane so much to only be tied to one little bell and whistle. Again, yes we know there is a on/off switch but before it even gets to that point why not have more control over the MCAS system with more AOA sensor. Surely adding that wouldn’t bankrupt the company.







The “fix” is, and would have been, for Boeing to be up front with the operators and provide the training documents from the git go.  No doubt Boeing is going to get a huge bloody nose from hiding this info, not to mention 💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵s in lawsuits.  The experts in the media and politics have bad mouthed and grounded the airframe, when in reality it was poor pilot performance.

So we can agree Boeing has a huge fault here in this situation. That’s my point. They effed up. Now they have plenty of time to fix the AOA sensor issue.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #133 on: May 13, 2019, 02:57:38 PM »
Why not add more sensors? ...

Because the bad sensor didn't cause the crash. It was part of the chain that the pilots failed to break.

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2019, 03:15:41 PM »
Because the bad sensor didn't cause the crash. It was part of the chain that the pilots failed to break.

Many airplanes only use a single sensor.

Why not add more sensors?   That’s up to the manufacturer.    EMBRAER probably would because that’s how they do things.   DASSAULT probably wouldn’t.   I obviously prefer the former approach being an EMBRAER guy.   If it meets the certification requirements it doesn’t really matter as long as there is a procedure to handle it—which there was in this case.   

Why not add three?  By this logic every airplane should have 20 engines because 19 may fail.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 03:40:36 PM by Vraciu »
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