Another 737 down

[Vraciu]

https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety


IMO aircrew experience probably the least relevant factor.

Well, you're wrong.   The crew was not only the last line of defense to save to save the jet, they were also the ultimate cause of its demise. 

1) They failed to reduce thrust from the takeoff setting.
2) They re-engaged a malfunctioning pitch trim system in violation of the QRC/QRH.

I can't think of a properly trained, experienced crew doing BOTH of these things.  I certainly can't imagine them doing item 2.

The MCAS is just a fancy name for the Speed Trim System (STS) that's been on the 737 for DECADES.   

[Busher]

Well, you're wrong.   The crew was not only the last line of defense to save to save the jet, they were also the ultimate cause of its demise. 

1) They failed to reduce thrust from the takeoff setting.
2) They re-engaged a malfunctioning pitch trim system in violation of the QRC/QRH.

I can't think of a properly trained, experienced crew doing BOTH of these things.  I certainly can't imagine them doing item 2.

The MCAS is just a fancy name for the Speed Trim System (STS) that's been on the 737 for DECADES.

Vraciu, while I agree with what you say, the professional pilots here, both active and retired, have to realize that we will never be able to explain to those that do not fly complex transport certified jets what experience vs training can mean to the safe completion of any flight.
With respect to all involved, Aces High is a great game but it does not create pilots. But a couple of years of groundschool and focused simulator training does not make an airline pilot either. There has never been a substitute for the apprenticeship of new First Officers learning everything they can from the "OLDFART" in the left seat that never seems stressed by any event in the airplane - minor or serious. I personally joined a major airline with almost 5000 hours of flying time, yet I enjoyed learning so much from many senior Captains that set the standard of what an airline pilot should be.
I will concede that the MCAS in the "Max" has more control input authority than I personally would have given the system but I am also convinced that the events that preceded the crashes of these jets, would not have overwhelmed an experienced cockpit crew.
Technology in the cockpit has become quite amazing and is fun to work with; but its made by humans and will occasionally "burp". Only experience can assure that abnormal behaviour of the airplane will be handled calmly and effectively.

[Vraciu]

Vraciu, while I agree with what you say, the professional pilots here, both active and retired, have to realize that we will never be able to explain to those that do not fly complex transport certified jets what experience vs training can mean to the safe completion of any flight.
With respect to all involved, Aces High is a great game but it does not create pilots. But a couple of years of groundschool and focused simulator training does not make an airline pilot either. There has never been a substitute for the apprenticeship of new First Officers learning everything they can from the "OLDFART" in the left seat that never seems stressed by any event in the airplane - minor or serious. I personally joined a major airline with almost 5000 hours of flying time, yet I enjoyed learning so much from many senior Captains that set the standard of what an airline pilot should be.
I will concede that the MCAS in the "Max" has more control input authority than I personally would have given the system but I am also convinced that the events that preceded the crashes of these jets, would not have overwhelmed an experienced cockpit crew.
Technology in the cockpit has become quite amazing and is fun to work with; but its made by humans and will occasionally "burp". Only experience can assure that abnormal behaviour of the airplane will be handled calmly and effectively.

Well said.   

[Puma44]

has
...........I am also convinced that the events that preceded the crashes of these jets, would not have overwhelmed an experienced cockpit crew.
Technology in the cockpit has become quite amazing and is fun to work with; but its made by humans and will occasionally "burp". Only experience can assure that abnormal behaviour of the airplane will be handled calmly and effectively.

Exactly.  Both accidents were a perfect storm of events that lacked sufficient experience to stop the worst of outcomes.

[Shuffler]

Exactly.  Both accidents were a perfect storm of events that lacked sufficient experience to stop the worst of outcomes.

Pilots were not even trained to report previous issues with aircraft.

[Puma44]

Pilots were not even trained to report previous issues with aircraft.

That’s a show stopper right there.

[Busher]

Pilots were not even trained to report previous issues with aircraft.

I can't comment on other airlines but in the one I worked for, properly documenting any and all snags in the aircraft's logbook along with an immediate report to maintenance control (the entire fleet had ACARS), was procedure.

[Vraciu]

I can't comment on other airlines but in the one I worked for, properly documenting any and all snags in the aircraft's logbook along with an immediate report to maintenance control (the entire fleet had ACARS), was procedure.

In Africa flying broken airplanes is a way of life.   Had a crew hand over a Legacy to me with two delaminated windshields.    When I squawked it I asked them why they didn’t.   I won’t reveal the answer but will let your imagination fill in the blanks. 

I also took off in one with a known Yaw Damp issue—known to everyone but me, that is. When I squawked it for the fourth time and refused to fly it if it wasn’t fixed once and for all something was finally done about it. 

At no time did I jeopardize safety, and I am glad I was flying the EMB during all this sort of nonsense, but it speaks to the mindset of what is considered normal over there.    Literally and figuratively, Africa is where airplanes go to die. 

[Puma44]

I can't comment on other airlines but in the one I worked for, properly documenting any and all snags in the aircraft's logbook along with an immediate report to maintenance control (the entire fleet had ACARS), was procedure.

Same here.  After moving to the left seat, it was always a point to hand the logbook over to the FO for a backup review day to day, and when there was an MEL to write up.  Best way to get a carpet dance in the Chief Pilot‘s for screwing up something in the logbook.

[guncrasher]

I was once blamed for a crane damage.  power went out and had no control, procedures require to step on the emergency break, but on this specific crane you had to pump it 5 times to make it work.  didnt know that.

shouldda, couldda, wouldda, you were not there.  it all started with a malfunction that should not have happened. so blame the pilots, they should have known that even under duress they could have had saved the day.  what bothers me is that possibly this could not have been the only 2 incidents where it happened.

like i said before once i had a 1977 mustang v8, it was a fast car, you would tap the gas and the wheels would spin, but there was a problem with the carburetor if you pressed the gas all the way in, it would get stuck and no matter how hard you stepped on the breaks it would not slow down.  it happened to me on the freeway and just by chance I remember that in driver's ed somebody asked what to do if it got stuck and couldnt stop the car.  teacher thought about it and said put it in neutral and use the brakes to pull over, then turn engine off.  so I did.  I wonder how many other mustangs crashed that had the same problem.


semp

[Shuffler]

A mustang and a crane are hardly an aircraft. A crain operator and a mustang driver are nowhere near as trained as a.pilot.

[Puma44]

A mustang and a crane are hardly an aircraft. A crain operator and a mustang driver are nowhere near as trained as a.pilot.

Hence the reason just anyone off the street can’t checkout a 737 for a trip around the pattern for a test flight vs going to the Ford Dealership and test driving/buying a Mustang.  Hard to make a logical comparison between the two instances described below.

[Arlo]

Um, can a trained pilot "checkout a 737 for a trip around the pattern for a test flight" if he's not affiliated with the airline or squadron that owns it?

[Puma44]

Um, can a trained pilot "checkout a 737 for a trip around the pattern for a test flight" if he's not affiliated with the airline or squadron that owns it?

Ummm, you miss the point with the comparison.

[pembquist]

Um, can a trained pilot "checkout a 737 for a trip around the pattern for a test flight" if he's not affiliated with the airline or squadron that owns it?

If he is John Travolta.