P 63 Airacobra

[Vraciu]

Can 'certains' be 'almost?' 

If it is less than certain it is not *certain*, aka **almost certain**, aka likely.

I wasn't there.   I didn't see it happen.   Thus the qualifier is appropriate.

Had I said "fully certain" or "really certain" that would be worthy of critique as a pleonasm.   Almost certain doesn't qualify. 

[Arlo]

There is certain. There is not certain. I'd say 'almost certain' is the latter. HT deals in certains. 

[Vraciu]

There is certain. There is not certain. I'd say 'almost certain' is the latter. HT deals in certains. 

Nothing is CERTAIN other than taxes and death.   If one didn't witness the event it becomes a matter of probability.   

The evidence favors combat usage of the P-63 in Manchuria against Japan (August 1945) , including aerial victories on at least one occasion (Ki-43, 15 August 1945 - Miroshnichenko*).

There is certain, almost certain, and uncertain.   In probability theory the term is "almost surely" (used alongside "almost certainly"). 

Time to go water your high horse. 

(I'm done discussing this with the certainly obtuse.)

*poof*

--
 * One source credits this victory to Sirotin.

[bustr]

I could understand if we were even in High School not doing any leg work but, we all know how to use the Internet ad so does Hitech.


Did a search in Russian and here is a "translation" that shows up at all P-63 Russia history pages in one form or another.


During a short campaign in the Far East, the Kingcobras were used to escort bombers and reconnaissance aircraft, cover troops and ships from the air, attack and bombard the Japanese positions. On the second day of the attack, 40 IL-4s, under cover of 50 R-63, bombed the Chuzhou fortified area, from where the Japanese bombarded the Soviet city of Iman. Parts of the 190th and 245th divisions supported the advancing Soviet and Mongolian forces, acting mainly as fighter-bombers and attack aircraft, also covering transport planes delivering fuel to advanced tank and mechanized units. The bombs were taken by the Soviet, FAB-100, for which several bombers reworked. Underwing large-caliber machine guns, attached to some of the P-63 series, were usually not installed, the 888th and 410th regiments attacked Japanese bases on the Kuril Islands, and then ensured the landing of assault forces on them.

Japanese aviation practically did not seriously oppose the advancing Soviet Army, therefore, it was not possible to check the quality of the Kingcobra in air battles. The only successful battle on the R-63 was conducted by Junior Lieutenant I. F. Miroshnichenko from the 17th IAP (190th IAD). On August 15, he and his leader, Hero of the Soviet Union, Sirotin, attacked two Japanese fighters who attacked transport aircraft approaching the landing in the Vaneemiao area. One Japanese man was shot down, another disappeared, having gone on a low-level flight among the hills. The type of Japanese cars in different documents is indicated differently. And as “I-97” (i.e. Nakajima Ki. 27), and as “Oscar” (according to the American code, Ki.43 was so designated). But he and the other were long-obsolete aircraft, so that the outcome of the battle was actually predetermined from the very beginning.

-------------------------------------

Here is a link to an article:

Cobras join the battle: P-39s and P-63s in Soviet forces.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cobras+join+the+battle%3a+P-39s+and+P-63s+in+Soviet+forces.-a0152512981

[Devil 505]

On what planet?


Hey, I am all about getting easy bomber kills but this thing will be a hangar queen within a week of it being introduced. 

Gladiators and Helldivers would get more use than that thing. 

Bring on the Kingcobra in any event.

Which "thing" is "that thing"?

I believe you meant the SM.79, but really both it and the P-63 would be hangar queens in the MA.

Sure the P-63 is fast, but it's acceleration and climb rate were well below average for a 1944 vintage fighter. Couple that with the same terrible cockpit views and funky gun package seen in the P-39Q and you have a recipe for a hangar queen.

Also, it has nearly zero use in special events, as Bustr's illustrates.

Arlo is right, the SM.79 is the better potential addition to the game.

[Arlo]

If one didn't witness the event it becomes a matter of probability.   

I didn't witness FDR's inaugurations. I think you're forgetting that I've chosen history as a vocation. WWII history is very much a part of it. Professors don't grade 'almost certain' very high. But do the 'you're obtuse because I'm almost certain' dance. 

[perdue3]

If it is less than certain it is not *certain*, aka **almost certain**, aka likely.

I wasn't there.   I didn't see it happen.   Thus the qualifier is appropriate.

Had I said "fully certain" or "really certain" that would be worthy of critique as a pleonasm.   Almost certain doesn't qualify.

I wish to unsheathe by lingual xiphos and partake in this war of semantics. Arlo is correct, in language, certain and uncertain may be used. "Almost certain" is indeed a pleonasm. In fact, almost certain simply means uncertain. One is either certain or is not certain, therefore one is either certain or is uncertain. No one somewhat knows something, they either know or they do not. If they are unsure if they know, then they are uncertain of their knowledge. If something is less certain than certain, then it is simply uncertain.

Nothing is CERTAIN other than taxes and death.   If one didn't witness the event it becomes a matter of probability.   


There is certain, almost certain, and uncertain.   In probability theory the term is "almost surely" (used alongside "almost certainly"). 

Random Franklinisms are nice, but that is but opinion. I feel that many things are certain along with death and taxes.

In probability theory and only in probability theory is "almost certainly" able to be used. Even then, it is rare that is used as a substitute for "almost surely." It is true, however, that "almost certainly" is sometimes used as a sub, so you are not entirely wrong. We must keep in mind that this is no longer a definition which is defined by language, it is defined by mathematics. Still, "almost surely" is the more correct term even in mathematics.

In closing, my advice is to steer clear of "almost certain" and "almost surely" unless one is referring to the probability theory in particular. To exemplify: I am certain, because it is beyond doubt, that the P-63 was used in Manchuria by the VVS in 1945. I am uncertain that P-63 would be used often in Special Events. I am confident that more people would appreciate the addition of many aircraft before they would the P-63, but I am not certain of that.

 

[FBDragon]

With the mindset of most of the AH crown I've got to agree with Devil and perdweeb, she would be a hanger queen in the MA and almost never come up as an option in situations like Scenario and FSO!!! Even though it's a great aircraft to me ( just my opinion ), it's not a worthwhile plane to put in AH, at least not till many others are put in first!!!

[Vraciu]

I didn't witness FDR's inaugurations. I think you're forgetting that I've chosen history as a vocation. WWII history is very much a part of it. Professors don't grade 'almost certain' very high. But do the 'you're obtuse because I'm almost certain' dance. 

Well, I am glad I am not paying you for your "expertise" because I know more about history as a hobby than you do as a "vocation".   This is Exhibit A.   Consider yourself corrected.

[Vraciu]

I wish to unsheathe by lingual xiphos and partake in this war of semantics. Arlo is correct, in language, certain and uncertain may be used. "Almost certain" is indeed a pleonasm. In fact, almost certain simply means uncertain. One is either certain or is not certain, therefore one is either certain or is uncertain. No one somewhat knows something, they either know or they do not. If they are unsure if they know, then they are uncertain of their knowledge. If something is less certain than certain, then it is simply uncertain.

Random Franklinisms are nice, but that is but opinion. I feel that many things are certain along with death and taxes.

In probability theory and only in probability theory is "almost certainly" able to be used. Even then, it is rare that is used as a substitute for "almost surely." It is true, however, that "almost certainly" is sometimes used as a sub, so you are not entirely wrong. We must keep in mind that this is no longer a definition which is defined by language, it is defined by mathematics. Still, "almost surely" is the more correct term even in mathematics.

In closing, my advice is to steer clear of "almost certain" and "almost surely" unless one is referring to the probability theory in particular. To exemplify: I am certain, because it is beyond doubt, that the P-63 was used in Manchuria by the VVS in 1945. I am uncertain that P-63 would be used often in Special Events. I am confident that more people would appreciate the addition of many aircraft before they would the P-63, but I am not certain of that.

 

Wrong.   Almost certain means the preponderance of evidence supports the assertion to an overwhelming degree, i.e. the probability of error is effectively zero.   People with brain pans bigger than yours, Arlo's, and mine COMBINED use "almost certain" to show a high level of probability that infinitely approaches absolute.    How many threes are in a third of a meter?    You get the point.   

It is in no way a pleonasm.

Uncertain is more nebulous.

Thus I remain almost certain (99.999%) the P-63 was used in combat against Japan.  I'll reserve CERTAIN for the day I see evidence that erases any lingering doubt I may have.

(I'm done debating it.   I have better things to do and the airplane will never be added regardless, which is too bad.)

[haggerty]

Dale has higher standards than War Thunder where any `ol plane they think is cool and players will make a micro purchase for will do. 

I'd venture to say the P-63 and Meteor arent the one off or blueprint planes of War Thunder

[Vraciu]

I could understand if we were even in High School not doing any leg work but, we all know how to use the Internet ad so does Hitech.


Did a search in Russian and here is a "translation" that shows up at all P-63 Russia history pages in one form or another.


During a short campaign in the Far East, the Kingcobras were used to escort bombers and reconnaissance aircraft, cover troops and ships from the air, attack and bombard the Japanese positions. On the second day of the attack, 40 IL-4s, under cover of 50 R-63, bombed the Chuzhou fortified area, from where the Japanese bombarded the Soviet city of Iman. Parts of the 190th and 245th divisions supported the advancing Soviet and Mongolian forces, acting mainly as fighter-bombers and attack aircraft, also covering transport planes delivering fuel to advanced tank and mechanized units. The bombs were taken by the Soviet, FAB-100, for which several bombers reworked. Underwing large-caliber machine guns, attached to some of the P-63 series, were usually not installed, the 888th and 410th regiments attacked Japanese bases on the Kuril Islands, and then ensured the landing of assault forces on them.

Japanese aviation practically did not seriously oppose the advancing Soviet Army, therefore, it was not possible to check the quality of the Kingcobra in air battles. The only successful battle on the R-63 was conducted by Junior Lieutenant I. F. Miroshnichenko from the 17th IAP (190th IAD). On August 15, he and his leader, Hero of the Soviet Union, Sirotin, attacked two Japanese fighters who attacked transport aircraft approaching the landing in the Vaneemiao area. One Japanese man was shot down, another disappeared, having gone on a low-level flight among the hills. The type of Japanese cars in different documents is indicated differently. And as “I-97” (i.e. Nakajima Ki. 27), and as “Oscar” (according to the American code, Ki.43 was so designated). But he and the other were long-obsolete aircraft, so that the outcome of the battle was actually predetermined from the very beginning.

-------------------------------------

Here is a link to an article:

Cobras join the battle: P-39s and P-63s in Soviet forces.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Cobras+join+the+battle%3a+P-39s+and+P-63s+in+Soviet+forces.-a0152512981

Don't confuse the "historian" with facts, now, otherwise you'll get clobbered with the passive-aggressive cudgel.

[Vraciu]

Which "thing" is "that thing"?

I believe you meant the SM.79, but really both it and the P-63 would be hangar queens in the MA.

Sure the P-63 is fast, but it's acceleration and climb rate were well below average for a 1944 vintage fighter. Couple that with the same terrible cockpit views and funky gun package seen in the P-39Q and you have a recipe for a hangar queen.

Also, it has nearly zero use in special events, as Bustr's illustrates.

Arlo is right, the SM.79 is the better potential addition to the game.

If you took the time to read the closing sentence the answer is quite obvious.    No to the 79.   Yes to the 63.    (Pointless discussion as I don't think we will see either.)

[Arlo]

Well, I am glad I am not paying you for your "expertise" because I know more about history as a hobby than you do as a "vocation".   This is Exhibit A.   Consider yourself corrected.

How'd you arrive at that conclusion, maestro? Was it my poking at your 'almost certainty?' Odds are, you'll never be signing my paychecks so I won't worry about that. I may send you a book, gratis*, if I live long enough to reach my PhD.

*Just send me your critique and recommended corrections and we'll be square.

[Arlo]

Almost certain means the preponderance of evidence supports the assertion to an overwhelming degree.

Actually, in history what you're describing is not an 'almost.' Overwhelming seems a low bar to you, though.