WWII: 1940-1943 (Request for Comment)

[CptTrips]

Well, I think its certainly something worth a shot! As others have said before - the lack of action and things to shoot at (with a fair chance of surviving the encounter) is something that is draining the lifeblood out of Aces High.

Count me in!

Litjan

Counted! 

[RAG]

  CptTrips - dare I ask anything further on this?

[CptTrips]

CptTrips - dare I ask anything further on this?

Well, let me back up to first principals a second. 

The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player. 

*  At the time, offline missions were mostly broken. 

*  Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run.  It was just too much friction.

*  The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start.  You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes.  Often way less than that.  And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run.   The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long.  A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight.  The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead.  Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player.  It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.

So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction.  There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow.  The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee.  They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action.  It is a workflow they already have memorized. 


So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System  Hitech was doing.  I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.

While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena.  It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it.  The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.

When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming.  At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete.  Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort.  I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.

So currently I'm not working on it.   I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work.  I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.






[Edit]  I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena.  That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific.  Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it.

 

[1stpar3]

  My opinion is.....its up to you?  I like the idea and would love to see it...then again I am not the one putting in the time and effort. It would be "CHANGE" and we all know how that is perceived I am still of the opinion that, constant run AI missions in Melee would give Off Time players something to target if they wished Not the best thing, but a supplement. Too me, it would be similar to the "AI Trains and Convoys" that ran in AH2. Some folk loved killing them and others didnt, but when they werent in AH3 a whole lot of folk noticed their absence and wanted them put back in I appreciate all the effort you have put in for the WW1 arena! I dont fly in it all that much, but it was a PLUS. Thank you

[Shuffler]

Well, let me back up to first principals a second. 

The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player. 

*  At the time, offline missions were mostly broken. 

*  Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run.  It was just too much friction.

*  The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start.  You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes.  Often way less than that.  And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run.   The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long.  A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight.  The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead.  Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player.  It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.

So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction.  There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow.  The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee.  They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action.  It is a workflow they already have memorized. 


So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System  Hitech was doing.  I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.

While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena.  It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it.  The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.

When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming.  At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete.  Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort.  I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.

So currently I'm not working on it.   I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work.  I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.






[Edit]  I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena.  That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific.  Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it.

 

In any case your time is much appreciated. I have not been in the WWI arena in a bit. Of course I have not been flying that much. I do really enjoy the WWI arena when I go there... and as I have stated before, I am not even a big WWI era guy.

Excellent work and again Thank You!!  <S>

[CptTrips]

I appreciate all the effort you have put in for the WW1 arena!

You're welcome.

I guess it's sorta the old Pareto principle.  I think you can get about 80% of the benefit of an AI arena with offline missions at 20% of the effort.

You get a little bit more of an organic feel with an arena.  You are not quite sure how the missions are currently interacting when you spawn.  You definitely see some unforeseen emergent behaviors.

I guess you also have the opportunity to meet friends in there and wing against AI in an arena.  Major420 and I would wing up and work our way down the front until the AI got too hard.  That was fun.
 
I haven't totally discarded the idea, it is just on hold now pending a justification.  In the mean time I can make offline missions. 

LoL.  You know discussing augmenting the Melee with any AI is the third rail of Aces High.  Don't touch it!!!

Your right though.  It is just a logical extension of field ack, and convoys, and trains, etc.  I used to love to attack trains. Finding one was a nice little bonus like finding that $10 bill in your jeans pocket doing laundry!  Bonus!

I did make an initial suggest to explore the capabilities of Melee AI augmentation.  https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398917.0.html

In limited and controlled applications, I think it could add amusements without harming the game.  Maybe a little AI area on a map where there is always AI having a little war.  If things are slow you could go over and hassle with them without leaving the arena.  One of the magic things about the AI is they could be air spawning off in an area away from bases so this doesn't need to interfere with the base capture win-the-war logic. Just a little isolated zone of AI activity you could fly over to.

I dunno.  Stuff like that is at least worth thinking about.


 

[CptTrips]

In any case your time is much appreciated.

 

[RAG]

Well, let me back up to first principals a second. 

The original reason I did WW1WF and was considering a WWII version, was to find a way of making the AI capabilities of AH more accessible to the average AH player. 

*  At the time, offline missions were mostly broken. 

*  Online missions via a Custom Arena were confusing and awkward for players to run.  It was just too much friction.

*  The Mission Arena also had awkward, confusing workflow, with the additional draw back of a lot of waiting around for schedule missions to start.  You could end up waiting around 10 minutes for a mission to start that would only run a max of 15 minutes.  Often way less than that.  And there would be a lot of waiting around for the next scheduled run.   The only way I could see that working is if the mission were very large scale and maybe 1hr long.  A player could die and go to the Populate dialog and respawn into a different aircraft already in flight.  The scale and duration would have had to be sufficient to justify the friction and overhead.  Still, I think the UI workflow would have been too confusing for the average player.  It's easier for them to just click on the Melee button if you make anything too much effort.

So I thought the persistent 24/7 AI augmented arena was a way to provide AI targets to the average AH player with the minimum of friction.  There would be no waiting, no complex UI workflow.  The player would interact with the arena exactly like they do the Melee.  They simply launch at will from a field and fly to the action.  It is a workflow they already have memorized. 


So to your question, I had about 70% of my terrain completed and was starting some initial prototype missions, but then found out about the complete rework of the Offline Mission System  Hitech was doing.  I put the WWII arena on hold to make him a set of 64 offline 4x4 dogfight missions so he'd have a good library of content to show off when he launched the new features.

While doing that, I became impressed enough with the improvements to the Offline UI workflow that I realized he had solved the problem I was trying to solve with the AI arena.  It can't be easier now for a player to select an Offline Mission from a nice list and immediately launch it.  The new changes have made missions very convenient and approachable now.

When I started the planning for the WWII AI arena, I didn't know this was coming.  At this point, I think the Offline Mission system might have made the need for a AI augmented arena obsolete.  Building an arena is a metric crap ton of effort.  I'm having a hard time seeing what the benefit would be at this point vs a set of individual Offline Missions that would be a lot less effort and could be done incrementally over time.

So currently I'm not working on it.   I'm feeling like there is no longer a good justification for the amount of work.  I've even suggested Hitech close out the WW1WF arena and I'll just convert those to offline missions.






[Edit]  I had toyed around with the idea of reducing the scope and only making a Pacific war arena.  That could be used here, and maybe over in War Online: Pacific.  Getting two uses out of the same work would almost make it worth it.

 

thank you sir and for all you've done.  I agree the new offline missions are much better and you can very quickly start again which is great.  I quite understand and its your time but if you were ever bored i reckon it would go down a storm.
i think the plus with an arena like WWI is that you can take of, land kills, re-arm re-fuel etc and be back in the fight as opposed to just suddenly being in the air at 250mph, gives you all round practice.  Again, thanks

[CptTrips]

i think the plus with an arena like WWI is that you can take of, land kills, re-arm re-fuel etc and be back in the fight as opposed to just suddenly being in the air at 250mph, gives you all round practice. 

I totally agree.  An AI augmented arena really does provide a more naturalistic experience for a player.  It probably would be a good way for a new player to get exposure to an environment a lot like the Melee, but in a more forgiving controlled manner.

Though Offline Missions have their advantages too.  So like most complex things in life there are trade-offs to be considered. 

The idea isn't abandoned.  I still have a labeled folder of notes and ideas for the arena sitting on my desk.  It's just on pause at the moment until I can figure how I can best provide the maximum benefit to the community per unit of effort.  I'm still evaluating that equation. 

[fd ski]

re: figthing AI - i have a sneaking suspicion that playing things like WoT, WoW or Warthunder - you do play again AI you just don't know it

As for the idea, great stuff.

Couple suggestions if I may:
1. make it separate arenas. For clarity sake. List when entering should be clear for anyone
     - 1944 Western Front (100 aircraft )
     - 1942 Eastern Front ( 150 aircraft )
    etc
2. AH gui is not most user friendly of them all. Using comms presents biggest challenge for many i think. Radio channels for this arena should be easily visible and understandable - don't use channels 2,3,4 6 etc. Rather 141 and so on.

3. Otto - AI gunner. No buts about it. But if i'm not mistaken there is one in offline play.... finetuning it might be a bit of a challenge.

Can i help you in anyway ? Can coad a little...

[CptTrips]

re: figthing AI - i have a sneaking suspicion that playing things like WoT, WoW or Warthunder - you do play again AI you just don't know it

Heh.  That would be funny. 

Couple suggestions if I may:
1. make it separate arenas. For clarity sake. List when entering should be clear for anyone
     - 1944 Western Front (100 aircraft )
     - 1942 Eastern Front ( 150 aircraft )
    etc

I had originally thought of going this way, but for a couple of reasons Hitech would have wanted it all in one arena.  I agree with his reasons.  it had advantages.  It also presented some challenges to make a custom terrset that could cover textures from the South Pacific to the Finnish winter. 

However, for a couple of reasons, I think now I will just concentrate mostly on Offline Missions. 
Rumor has it that WO:P might eventually support missions, so I'm working on some content towards that.  (Bonus, they can be used in AH as well. )

I got some simple missions I want to do that are more micro-scenario based rather than just 4x4 furball.  Pacific War based. 

I'll do those while I wait on some some technical enhancements that might come someday, then I'll work on a related series of more detailed, larger scale missions that cover the Solomon Islands Campaign.  Like a pseudo career progression/story line.

Can i help you in anyway ? Can coad a little...

Thanks for the offer.  You know, if you have a technical bent, and a moderate pain tolerance, you should delve into building some Offline Missions of your own.

I'd love to see the community re-build an active cadre of mission designers.  There are still some rough edges, but I there is huge untapped potential for this capability.  I'd love to see as active a mission designer community again as there are skinners and terrain builders.

<S>