Lion Air Report

[Vraciu]

Bud should have been stripped of his wings long before that fatal incident.

My father tagged and bagged the body parts from that crash... .

Often times people will allow people to slip through the cracks because they cannot be bothered to do the paperwork required to remove someone from a situation. the thought process " If I can make it through without this guy killing someone then it's someone else's problem" is all to common from people in positions of transitioning authority.

... .


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I believe he killed four people to include himself.   The squadron commander, Lt. Col. Mark McGeehan, tried to protect his men by refusing to allow anyone else to fly with Holland.   McGeehan (co-pilot on Czar 52, the accident aircraft) attempted to eject too late and was only part way out the hatch when the plane hit.   His wife and kids saw it happen.   

Here's the paper I referenced above.   Well worth reading. 

Here is the best version in terms of format:  http://sbfpd.org/uploads/3/0/9/6/3096011/darker_shades_of_blue.pdf

Here are backup links should the other go down.

http://www.hptinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CZAR-52-A-Prelude-to-Disaster-Revised.pdf

http://gwclei.com/darker-shades-of-blue-a-case-study-of-failed-leadership/

[Ciaphas]

And by the way, this guy’s act wasn’t one of complacency.  It was pure out of control ego that killed two innocents. Absolutely no excuse for it.

Definition of complacency

1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies When it comes to safety, complacency can be dangerous.
2 : an instance of usually unaware or uninformed self-satisfaction

That dude was flying B-52's like they were an F-16 for a very long time. He grew comfortable with it regardless of his knowledge of the B-52's flight/performance characteristics. His chain of commands refusal to deal with his reckless rogue behavior created an environment of normality that removed his respect of the air-frame, blatant disregard to SOPs  in a manner that made his behavior the norm. This norm ultimately resulted in his B-52 kissing the earth with a total of four officers on board. Sad though, you can see one of the hatches jettison as if someone tried to punch out... .


So complacency killed the cat again... .

[Vraciu]

That dude was flying B-52's like they were an F-16 for a very long time. He grew comfortable with it regardless of his knowledge of the B-52's flight/performance characteristics. His chain of commands refusal to deal with his reckless rogue behavior created an environment of normality that removed his respect of the air-frame, blatant disregard to SOPs  in a manner that made his behavior the norm. This norm ultimately resulted in his B-52 kissing the earth with a total of four officers on board. Sad though, you can see one of the hatches jettison as if someone tried to punch out... .


So complacency killed the cat again... .

See above. McGeehan tried to eject.  He got part way out.   His wife and kids saw the whole thing from their back yard.

[Ciaphas]

See above. McGeehan tried to eject.  He got part way out.   His wife and kids saw the whole thing from their back yard.

+1

[guncrasher]

When American pilots crash we take our lumps.  We don't blame the airplane when it's our fault.   Derp.

So we crash in a more professional way than anybody else.

semp

[Ciaphas]

So we crash in a more professional way than anybody else.

semp

part of a crash is the response from the company or parent company. The difference is when the company takes responsibility for the crash (training and MX) instead of blaming the whipping boy as if it somehow negates their responsibility in the situation.


Are you really this dense?


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[Vraciu]

So we crash in a more professional way than anybody else.

semp

At this point you’re just being obtuse. 

[Vraciu]

part of a crash is the response from the company or parent company. The difference is when the company takes responsibility for the crash (training and MX) instead of blaming the whipping boy as if it somehow negates their responsibility in the situation.


Are you really this dense?


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It appears thus.

[guncrasher]

At this point you’re just being obtuse.

From my point of view, you are.

This is what I read from you guys, it at least my impression.  Yes there's a problem but real pilots should have handled it and no reason to ground the plane.


semp

[Busher]

Wow, this discussion lead me to look at a video of this clown's crash.

First thing that came to mind.... Don't get your spurs caught in the rudder pedals.

Second thing... why would his co-pilot allow him to get the airplane to a bank angle like that so close to the ground (chain of command be damned).

Third thing.... basic flying skills suggest that when recovering from steep bank angle descent, roll wings level before attempting to raise the nose with the elevators. Moron must have missed that part... shame other people had to die... his fate was only a matter of time.

[Vraciu]

From my point of view, you are.

This is what I read from you guys, it at least my impression.  Yes there's a problem but real pilots should have handled it and no reason to ground the plane.


semp

This industry requires brutal honesty.    There is no place here for participation trophies.  Your point of view (not you personally) is ignorant and uninformed.    That's an assessment not a personal attack.

You don't know what you're talking about.   The bulk of the rest of us do, particularly those with relevant experience.  Simple as that.

[Puma44]

Wow, this discussion lead me to look at a video of this clown's crash.

First thing that came to mind.... Don't get your spurs caught in the rudder pedals.

Second thing... why would his co-pilot allow him to get the airplane to a bank angle like that so close to the ground (chain of command be damned).

Third thing.... basic flying skills suggest that when recovering from steep bank angle descent, roll wings level before attempting to raise the nose with the elevators. Moron must have missed that part... shame other people had to die... his fate was only a matter of time.

During the course of the incident investigation when the video became available, our resident senior Command Pilot Buff expert noted that the initial stall indications were visible at about 90 degrees of turn and the stall was exaggerated by the continued steep bank.  He was amazed that the AC didn’t simply roll wings level and fly out of it.

The investigation team discovered numerous eye opening facts.  The most glaring was that the pilots of the squadron Holland was attached to for flying adamantly refused to fly with him, especially on this air show event.  When the squadron ops officer relayed this to the wing command structure, he was directed to take the copilot’s seat instead.  This was a perfect point to break the safety chain and stop the lunacy. 

The investigation team also learned or a change of command fly over where Holland flew extremely low, below AF and FAA restrictions, not to mention good judgement.

Another time, he buzzed his daughter’s softball game in downtown Spokane at low altitude.

Adittionally, when being filmed for a documentary, he cleared a ridge line by a mere 30’.  When the very low time, new lieutenant sitting in Holland’s copilots seat for that flight was interviewed, he stated being so scared at the approaching ridge line, he grabbed the yoke and pulled.  The investigation determined the lieutenant’s action most likely saved them from impact with the ridge.

https://youtu.be/LTOOtPST4Rs

https://youtu.be/YQa4PpIkOZU

[Vraciu]

Wow, this discussion lead me to look at a video of this clown's crash.

First thing that came to mind.... Don't get your spurs caught in the rudder pedals.

Second thing... why would his co-pilot allow him to get the airplane to a bank angle like that so close to the ground (chain of command be damned).

Third thing.... basic flying skills suggest that when recovering from steep bank angle descent, roll wings level before attempting to raise the nose with the elevators. Moron must have missed that part... shame other people had to die... his fate was only a matter of time.

You should read the study I posted above.   It's really really worth your time. 

(Also, my PMs to you are blocked.   Is it something I said?  😉 )

[Shuffler]

LOL

PMs in this case mean Pilot Memos 

[Busher]

You should read the study I posted above.   It's really really worth your time. 

(Also, my PMs to you are blocked.   Is it something I said?  😉 )

No Sir, not at all. I will try and figure out why PMs to me fail.