Author Topic: Lion Air Report  (Read 8126 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2019, 11:01:58 AM »
Are you really considering activation of the stick shaker and the plane repetitively and forcefully trying to lawndart the 'same situation'?

Why isn't it?    Both require correct evaluation of the situation.

A trim runaway is a trim runaway is a trim runaway.    The airplane wasn't doing anything differently that any other jet in the world is capable of doing.   If the stab trim is running when you don't want it to then you disable it.    It's really friggin' simple.  And at least in the Boeing you have a manual way to trim it back the proper direction.  In most airplanes you're stuck with it in the position it's in once you get it stopped.
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Offline deSelys

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM »
It wasn't a trim runaway, it was a defective aoa vane.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2019, 11:07:06 AM »
It wasn't a trim runaway, it was a defective aoa vane.

Wrong.

The stab trim was commanded to nose down by the MCAS.   The previous version of the system known as the STS can do the exact same thing.

The 737 NNC directs the crew to engage the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches.

It's a stab trim runaway.  The reason for it is irrelevant.   The procedure to fix it is ALWAYS the same.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2019, 02:13:43 PM »
Are you really considering activation of the stick shaker and the plane repetitively and forcefully trying to lawndart the 'same situation'?

Yes. Absolutely yes. Here's why:

Both the Lion Air and Ethiopian situations BEGAN with a incorrect/malfunctioning AOA vane. That is the origin of the problem.

The MCAS system would never have activated if they had handled the malfunction of the AOA vane correctly.

IE:
1. Maintain Aircraft Control (Fly the Jet; do not change configuration.)
2. Analyse the situation (AOA Malfunction)
3. Take the Proper Action (Disable/Deselect the malfunctioning AOA vane. Return to Airport. Land)

Do those things and MCAS is immaterial.
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Offline Busher

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2019, 06:49:03 PM »
For Toad, Puma44, Vraciu and any other pros (or former pros like me) I may have failed to mention, it is clear that these crashes resulted from what we would all call to some degree a "non-event". We have all attempted to explain to those that have no experience in jets, that the event could have been handled with relative ease. And now Greg Feith has publicly stated what we have saying from the beginning. I don't think they believe us.

It seems people actually want to believe that there was nothing these pilots could do. Maybe it adds to the drama.
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Offline Ciaphas

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2019, 06:53:00 PM »
people tend to blame the machine before they blame the person.


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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2019, 06:59:25 PM »
For Toad, Puma44, Vraciu and any other pros (or former pros like me) I may have failed to mention, it is clear that these crashes resulted from what we would all call to some degree a "non-event". We have all attempted to explain to those that have no experience in jets, that the event could have been handled with relative ease. And now Greg Feith has publicly stated what we have saying from the beginning. I don't think they believe us.

It seems people actually want to believe that there was nothing these pilots could do. Maybe it adds to the drama.

people tend to blame the machine before they blame the person.


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Quite true on all counts.    I think we are beating a dead horse by trying to educate the unwilling.
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2019, 09:28:17 PM »
For the record, I have north of 15000 hours of actual stick time. I don’t find you guys beating a dead horse at all. The simple fact is this: you have a 200 hour company baby in the right seat and some other guy in the left seat without any deep systems knowledge. Yea - that’s gonna kill you when stuff goes completely stupid. Keep it coming


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Offline Puma44

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2019, 10:00:48 PM »
Yes. Absolutely yes. Here's why:

Both the Lion Air and Ethiopian situations BEGAN with a incorrect/malfunctioning AOA vane. That is the origin of the problem.

The MCAS system would never have activated if they had handled the malfunction of the AOA vane correctly.

IE:
1. Maintain Aircraft Control (Fly the Jet; do not change configuration.)
2. Analyse the situation (AOA Malfunction)
3. Take the Proper Action (Disable/Deselect the malfunctioning AOA vane. Return to Airport. Land)

Do those things and MCAS is immaterial.

...and a fourth, vital step:  Maintain situational awareness

Not that either of these crews covered the first three.



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2019, 10:26:06 PM »
For the record, I have north of 15000 hours of actual stick time. I don’t find you guys beating a dead horse at all. The simple fact is this: you have a 200 hour company baby in the right seat and some other guy in the left seat without any deep systems knowledge. Yea - that’s gonna kill you when stuff goes completely stupid. Keep it coming

Brilliantly stated.

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Offline Ramesis

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2019, 02:51:03 PM »
With all due respect to PUMA... accidents happen regardless of the manufacture of a plane  :salute
But having been an AE in the USN and have PERSONALLY seen another AE get ejected from an F8K in a hangar
due to someone NOT placing pins in the ejection seat... I really have NO problem with stating... those of us
who were ground crew were in just the same peril as the pilots... particularly in the Nam era  :cheers:
Again,  :salute

 
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2019, 05:54:16 PM »
With all due respect to PUMA... accidents happen regardless of the manufacture of a plane  :salute
But having been an AE in the USN and have PERSONALLY seen another AE get ejected from an F8K in a hangar
due to someone NOT placing pins in the ejection seat... I really have NO problem with stating... those of us
who were ground crew were in just the same peril as the pilots... particularly in the Nam era  :cheers:
Again,  :salute

 

Couldn’t agree more.  That’s why it’s up to the crews, air and ground, to be well trained, proficient, and ready for to handle out of the normal events so no one gets hurt. :salute

Ouch!  That accidental ejection out of the F-8.  Knowing where my seat pin(s) were at all times and ensuring they were in the correct place for the situation, was at the forefront of my mind whenever getting ready to sit on one.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 07:46:09 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Ciaphas

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2019, 06:55:33 PM »
Couldn’t agree more.  That’s why it’s up the crews, air and ground, to be well trained, proficient, and ready for to handle out of the normal events so no one gets hurt. :salute

Ouch!  That accidental ejection out of the F-8.  Knowing where my seat pin(s) were at all times and ensuring they were in the correct place for the situation, was at the forefront of my mind whenever getting ready to sit on one.


We have pilots that are afraid to pin their seats, it's very odd.

I currently work kn the MK16 and MK16 ESUP systems.


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Offline Puma44

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2019, 09:34:50 AM »

We have pilots that are afraid to pin their seats, it's very odd.

I currently work kn the MK16 and MK16 ESUP systems.


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Yes, very odd.  Always made sense to make sure it was pinned and safe before sitting on one or getting up off it.  Has a pilot ever explained why?



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Offline deSelys

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Re: Lion Air Report
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2019, 09:57:58 AM »
For the Nth times: it is possible to raise eyebrows at Boeing's implementation of the MCAS in the 737 MAX (*) while acknowledging that other factors played key roles in both crashes, and that the Lion Air's report is biaised.

So yes, with competent crews and an adequate safety culture (more to that later), the AOA vane incidents wouldn't probably have turned into disasters.

But Boeing decided that:

- a system whose failure was eventually qualified as 'hazardous' could have a single point of failure (a single AOA vane)
- documentation of the system was minimal (before the 1st crash)
- 737 MAX simulators couldn't adequately replicate MCAS activation
- after the 1st crash, a service bulletin informing airlines was released stating that the MCAS could deflect the tail in increments up to 2.5°, up from the 0.6° told to the FAA in the safety assessment
- MCAS could reset itself after each pilot response to repeatedly pitch the aircraft down
- no provision to deactivate the MCAS system was made other than by completely shutting down the non-malfunctioning electrical trim system

which is not demonstrating a stellar 'safety culture' at their level. Safety Culture was coined in INSAG-1 summary report of Chernobyl's disaster. In this report, and in the INSAG-7 update report, you'll find this sentence: "Nuclear plant designs must be as far as possible invulnerable to operator error and to deliberate violation of safety procedure". So, a safe design must plan for stupidity and incompetence. Not to allow it to thrive, but to shield from it when (not if) it happens.

So yes, some air companies in some part of the world operate under standards not acceptable in the western world, and the rate of accidents demonstrates the difference. However, even if not quite so often, some grave operator errors happen in the western companies too: American Airlines 587, Air France 447, Colgan Air 3407... In some of those crashes, disaster would have been avoided if the crews had just left the plane fly by itself. This was not a solution in the situation leading to both MCAS related crashes.

Instead of fuming at the 'unfair' treatment of poor little Boeing, I personally hope that this will kick the company back on the track towards the safety level it was renowned for. And I also hope that the selection and training of flight crews will improve and not be allowed to deteriorate further.

(*) a previous and different form of MCAS is installed on the KC 46. This system takes input on dual redundant angle of attack sensors; it will disengage with stick input by the pilot.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:00:50 AM by deSelys »
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