How have we lost so many people to this wonderful game?

[guncrasher]

Organized, curated, mission-based.  Tight cooperation and coordination by players who have their heads out of their anus.   A defined beginning, middle, and end with clearly defined achieveable victory conditions with that time. 
 
Not a disorganized,  wandering, pointless cluster fk, that just drags on and is finished in the middle of the night when you aren't even there, and every idiot just picks his nose doing whatever and has no reason to engage if the odds aren't completely in their favor beause who cares... oh, I'm sorry open sandbox.  You know, open sandbox, like where cats go to sht. 

Some people are more goal-oriented, some people just prefer wandering around picking their nose.  Different strokes.

You asked. 

ok now take the same situation, fso is goal oriented, we have given objectives and we fly in squads, given priority targets of what to shoot down and who to avoid.  we have actually flown thru a swarm of fighters to get to bombers or our main whatever plane we need to shoot down.

now think of it in terms of ma.  a squad or couple of squads get together and fly around in a swarm and all of a sudden they become picktards and skilless dweebs.  they are hordes who only want easy kills.  they run at the first sign of trouble or ask their friends to help.

not once have I ever seen a thread in fso complaining about hordes or calling out for help while trying a 1v1. or complaining about bomb****s who just want  to fly around and rtb.

both are the same thing, but it's the attitude, in fso it's cool to horde, in ma "it's against the rules, you skill-less dweeb".  you ruined my 1v1!!!!!!!!!!!!, you ran to ack, you ran back to friends....

in fso our job is to overwhelm the enemy, you do it in the ma and you are just part of a horde.

and maybe that's why some people prefer to play in fso only.  they fly for 30 or 40 minutes or longer and maybe never fire a shot, but they keep coming back.

ma has objectives just like in fso, take bases, overwhelm defenders.  fso overwhelm defenders cause as much damage and run back to mommy (friends).

so I guess the difference is expectations, in fso expect to get horded and die or perhaps shoot a couple of rounds and sometimes maybe not even fire a round and die.  but in ma you expect a fair fight according to what you think it's a fair fight, otherwise all the other players are hording, bomb****s, skilless dweebs, who should go play world of planes.

perhaps we should treat the ma the same way fso is and we would have more players from fso joining during the week.  or maybe like somebody posted a thread a month or 2 ago, if you would only stop complaining in the bb and fly the ma our numbers would be up.  but ego is a hard thing to lose.


semp

[FESS67]

In response to the OP.

I think losing people and not attracting / keeping new people are two distinct issues.  How we have lost people is perhaps the easiest to hypothesise on.  Here are my opinions (in no particular order)

• Player base is literally dying off.  Many of the players in this game are older and eventually we die.
• Players burn out. At some stage you just need a break.
• Players get bored.  Different from a burn out, they find the game does not hold them any more.  The game has not changed significantly enough to keep it fresh.  We pretty much do the same things we always did.  There is a distinct lack of variety.
• Players get bored.  Although the game has not changed much the way that players play the game has (or at least appears to have) changed.  It is more of a hit and run rather than a fight it out game.  IMO fight it out is the preferred option.  We see this in fighters running, bombers bailing and GVs despawning.  People are making their way to fights and the enemy is finding ways to avoid that fight.  In a combat game that will lose you players.
• The community can be toxic and too many clashes appear to go unchecked.  Eventually, game time becomes less enjoyable and people go find fun things to do.
• The decline in numbers means many of the 'idiosyncrasies' of the game become amplified and the game does not feel like it used to.
• Changes in gameplay to appease some sections of the community do not appeal to others.  Eventually they leave.

Some of those are natural attrition.  Most cannot be controlled or influenced by Hitech, some can.
[/list]

On the other side of the coin, attracting / keeping new players should be in a separate thread.  There will certainly be common themes around population density and fight v flight issues.

[CptTrips]

ma has objectives just like in fso, take bases, overwhelm defenders.

I disagree.  I do not think the Melee has objectectives like an FSO or a Scenario, and that is exactly the point.  I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee.  But no one really cares.  Not like they do in a Scenario. 

If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier.  If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.

It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility.  No one has been assigned a task and feels resposibility to the team to get it done.  It's just...whatever dude. 

Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights.  They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar.  They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere.  Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar.  They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee.  Just go bomb some other base.  Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!

In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour,  that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form.  It would be nonsensicle. 

You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO."  It doesn't work that way.  There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility.  It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off.  There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame. 

It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.

[guncrasher]

I disagree.  I do not think the Melee has objectectives like a FSO or a Scenario and that is exactly the point.  I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee.  But no one really cares.  Not like they do in a Scenario. 

If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier.  If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.

It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility.  No one has been assigned a task and feel resposibility to the team to get it done.  It's just...whatever dude. 

Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights.  They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar.  They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere.  Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar.  They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee.  Just go bomb some other base.  Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!

In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour,  that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form.  It would be nonsensicle. 

You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO."  It doesn't work that way.  There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility.  It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off.  There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame. 

It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.

   










 




perhaps we should treat the ma the same way fso is and we would have more players from fso joining during the week.  or maybe like somebody posted a thread a month or 2 ago, if you would only stop complaining in the bb and fly the ma our numbers would be up.  but ego is a hard thing to lose.


semp

lately some of the biggest fights I have seen are over taking a base.  we have had bombers, heavy jabos, tanks, defenders are 1/2 of our horde along with their own tanks and m3's.  we will fight 1 or 2 hours over that base, taking it down, they resupply, we take it down....

you know, why the fights ends?  because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch.   they dont care about actually taking the base, once the jabos and bombers stop coming, you think the fight will continue as they are more than enough to keep it going, but nope it ends.  some players like to stay high up, while the rest of us are low on the ground then they dive in and clear our 6 or 12 then climb back up.

that's what I see anyway.


semp

edit: we talk about this constantly on squad chanel on pigs squad night

edit2:  i misunderstood you, I apologize.

[FESS67]

I disagree.  I do not think the Melee has objectectives like an FSO or a Scenario, and that is exactly the point.  I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee.  But no one really cares.  Not like they do in a Scenario. 

If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier.  If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.

It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility.  No one has been assigned a task and feels resposibility to the team to get it done.  It's just...whatever dude. 

Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights.  They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar.  They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere.  Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar.  They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee.  Just go bomb some other base.  Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!

In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour,  that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form.  It would be nonsensicle. 

You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO."  It doesn't work that way.  There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility.  It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off.  There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame. 

It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.

I think the issue with the MA 'objectives' is that most of the time the player base does not merit the objective.  What I mean by that is we have a squad sized force on each side yet the objectives require a company or regiment sized force to take.  It leads to marginal fights.

[CptTrips]

you know, why the fights ends?  because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch.   they dont care about actually taking the base,

OK, but isn't that just another variation of Melee "no on really gives a fk"?  Instead of, don't interfere with my pointless little dogfight, its, don't interfere with my pointless vulching.

Would that happen in a Scenario or would they get the order to get their tails back to base, recover, prepare for the next phase.


There are things that could be done to improve the Melee experience if people had open minds, but regardless, you are never going to turn it into an FSO/Scenario. 

That's why so many who have tried both, prefer the intensity and sense of resposibilty and purpose of Scenarios, and many find the Melee a hollow and unsatisfying substitute.

[Ciaphas]

Could that be a product of having to many options?

[CptTrips]

Could that be a product of having to many options?

I guess you could say that.

You're always going to have less options when you have orders.
Commanders have all kinds of Scenraio constraints.  Fields they can and can't use.  Alt caps.  Time constraints.  Point goals.
The trade off is you get a higher sense of intensity and purpose.  A deeper sense of coordination and cooperation to achieve victory within the constraints.

Those constriants are what make it a curated experience.  As opposed to the Melee random everybody do what ever they want.

You know what makes the difference between a Beethoven concerto and my Sister's 8 year old brat banging on the piano for hours?  Structure. 

[FBDragon]

anybody noticed we had over 200 players loggin in last friday during fso?  they were split between fso and ma.  yeah I know back in the day we had a billion.


semp

amen!!!        I pretty much just show up for FSO and Senario's

[FLS]

FLS, you are the consummate toxic insider.  I have said it before and nothing that you bring to the forum dissuades me from my opinion.  You add very little to any of the constructive threads and appear to exist just to throw cold water on the fire.  Perhaps you should consider positives and add to the debate rather than negatives.  Finally, when you do not have anything constructive to add, why not just say nothing?  Why do you always need to subvert and dismiss others opinions?

So I'm OK as long as I agree that you have great ideas that just need a little polish but if I honestly disagree I'm a troll who should be cancelled? Did I get that right?   

[asterix]

you know, why the fights ends?  because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch.   they dont care about actually taking the base, once the jabos and bombers stop coming, you think the fight will continue as they are more than enough to keep it going, but nope it ends.  some players like to stay high up, while the rest of us are low on the ground then they dive in and clear our 6 or 12 then climb back up.

that's what I see anyway.

edit: we talk about this constantly on squad chanel on pigs squad night

Maybe they just do not know what is needed because nobody tells them that in advance or asks them if they could do something else, so they go where the red icons are and do whatever they come up with. Often there is not enough information on MA to really care about something so one ends up doing whatever they feel like.

[Lusche]

Side note on FSO numbers:

Last tour there were 1096 pilots in the MA (with at least one kill or death). For FSO I found 162 individual pilots in the same month (~14%)
21 of the FSO pilots did not fly in the MA (at least not on that ID), 30 more did play less than 3 hours in the MA.

[Vraciu]

I think the issue with the MA 'objectives' is that most of the time the player base does not merit the objective.  What I mean by that is we have a squad sized force on each side yet the objectives require a company or regiment sized force to take.  It leads to marginal fights.

This.

Agree with your prior posts as well.

[bbosen]

bbosen, I had completely forgotten about you running AH/AH2 on Linux....iirc wasn't you a Scout Leader and created your Lan Party for your scout troop and your own kids back when you created/designed all those training missions, etc... You were 1 of a very small few that was able to play AH2 successfully on Linux using one of the emulators (wine?)... Always found your posts interesting back then when you was telling the AH community of what you were doing ....

Your mentioning that you have designed/coded your very own "Linux Air Combat Simulator/Game" sounds awesome and I'm intrigued, is it private for your personal use with your kids or have you hosted it anywhere as "open source" if you don't mind me asking..... Just  curious....

 

TC

Yes, that's me. Thanks for asking. I call it "Linux Air Combat" or "LAC" and it's open-source. If you flew any of my offline AH2 missions you will recognize the general feel of LAC... I was able to re-use a lot of the mission sound effects and concepts from my AH2 work. It's LINUX-only and missions are limited to just 10 players each. Graphics are primitive. Here's the main web site:

https://askmisterwizard.com/2019/LinuxAirCombat/LinuxAirCombat.htm

 

[FESS67]

So I'm OK as long as I agree that you have great ideas that just need a little polish but if I honestly disagree I'm a troll who should be cancelled? Did I get that right?   

No