Author Topic: Unsportsmanlike game play  (Read 15556 times)

Offline Vinkman

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Unsportsmanlike game play
« on: October 21, 2021, 11:54:03 AM »
Yesterday my patience for the 20k Pony squad ran a little thin. So I poked them a little on 200. They aren't bad people, this is not an attack on any person or persons.  Yes everyone can play as they chose. But the ensuing discussion made it clear that some don't believe sportsmanship has a place in this game or what sportsmanship is. Some seem to believe the definition of sportsmanship is being polite on 200.  But Sportsmanship lives in the way you play the game.

I know at times we try in this simulation to emulate the tactics of the war. It makes thing seem like a real simulation. In the real war packs of Mustangs would patrol the skies at 20-25K looking to clear a space for bombers or to engage fighters.  Those fighters would be 25K Dora-9s or 109 G-14s and K4s. It was life and death. Few chances were taken and no one involved considered it fun. Running, not turn fighting and only BnZ-ing fighter that had lost there SA is how the vast majority of kills in the real war were obtained. 

If you are in a pack of ponies trolling at 20K and diving on Yaks trying to turn fight Brewster's at 200mph at 5k you are not simulating the "tactics" of the war. You are inserting yourself in someone else's fun and ruining it.  For many players ACM is the fun in this game. It's why they come to air combat sims.  This first pass from high alt could be forgiven if you continued to stay engaged and entered the fray. But instead, if engaged, you run. 2-3 sectors at  time.  This "strategy" described as "smart" or "realistic" gameplay is nothing more than an unsportsmanlike attempt to deny a fellow player any chance of "out flying" you. It can only be used against players that are already engaged in ACM with other players and or players with slower plane...which is everyone if you fly a pony at from 20k. It succeed only in situations where this gameplay is parasitic.

I would like for a second for those of you that play this way, and those of you that defend it, to think what the game would be like if everyone played that way.   Groups of fighters taking a 15 minutes to climb out to ensure they were higher than everyone. Every higher fighter group at equal numbers at equal alt you see, you turn and run away from. A sky full of posturing planes that never engage if the fight is fair, always avoiding, and if engaged everyone flees at top speed. There is no furball to get your easy BnZ kills from. There is no heavy slow F4U to BnZ because no one is prepping fields.   The game would be so boring everyone would quit and there would be no game. 

A game is played for the enjoyment of all players. If you aren't making the game fun for the opposition, if you aren't giving them a reasonable chance to out "fly you" and win, there will cease to be an opposition which is the end of the game. By definition your gameplay style is bad for the game because "never dying" is the wrong objective in a GAME. That's the objective in a real war. The objective in a game should be to win by learning to out fly, out shoot, and out bomb your opponents. If that was everyone objective gameplay would improve greatly.

No I'm not suggesting every fight is perfectly fair. Yes I know base taking objective call for vulching, ganging during a base assault. But don't let those scenarios be a the excuse for strategies purely committed to ganging, picking, and running.  It just...lame. Dying isn't that terrible. I do it all the time.

Play hard, fight hard, engage the enemy!  It's much more fun for everyone.  :salute

Vinkman

 
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 01:27:16 PM »
An arena with no score.  :D
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 01:33:47 PM »
Well, I suppose you could take a pony up to 20k and fight them on even ground.  But what you really want it for them to fly the planes you want them to fly, at the altitude you prefer them to be at, and attack in the manner you are most comfortable with.   

My definition of "Sportsmanship" would be more like:
  1.  Don't talk crap on chan200 or PM.
  2.  Don't intentionally game bugs or glitches in the software.
  3.  Be willing to consider switching sides to try and keep teams as balanced as feasible.

Everyone defines it differently I suppose. 

Most people define "Sportsmanship" as whenever the opponent plays the way they want them to.


« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 01:48:49 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline Mako-

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2021, 01:40:01 PM »
Yes everyone can play as they chose.

Then let it go and move on. They will fly any way you want to when you pay for their monthly fee   :bolt:
Mako

Offline Ramesis

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2021, 02:32:31 PM »
Yesterday my patience for the 20k Pony squad ran a little thin. So I poked them a little on 200. They aren't bad people, this is not an attack on any person or persons.  Yes everyone can play as they chose. But the ensuing discussion made it clear that some don't believe sportsmanship has a place in this game or what sportsmanship is. Some seem to believe the definition of sportsmanship is being polite on 200.  But Sportsmanship lives in the way you play the game.

I know at times we try in this simulation to emulate the tactics of the war. It makes thing seem like a real simulation. In the real war packs of Mustangs would patrol the skies at 20-25K looking to clear a space for bombers or to engage fighters.  Those fighters would be 25K Dora-9s or 109 G-14s and K4s. It was life and death. Few chances were taken and no one involved considered it fun. Running, not turn fighting and only BnZ-ing fighter that had lost there SA is how the vast majority of kills in the real war were obtained. 

If you are in a pack of ponies trolling at 20K and diving on Yaks trying to turn fight Brewster's at 200mph at 5k you are not simulating the "tactics" of the war. You are inserting yourself in someone else's fun and ruining it.  For many players ACM is the fun in this game. It's why they come to air combat sims.  This first pass from high alt could be forgiven if you continued to stay engaged and entered the fray. But instead, if engaged, you run. 2-3 sectors at  time.  This "strategy" described as "smart" or "realistic" gameplay is nothing more than an unsportsmanlike attempt to deny a fellow player any chance of "out flying" you. It can only be used against players that are already engaged in ACM with other players and or players with slower plane...which is everyone if you fly a pony at from 20k. It succeed only in situations where this gameplay is parasitic.

I would like for a second for those of you that play this way, and those of you that defend it, to think what the game would be like if everyone played that way.   Groups of fighters taking a 15 minutes to climb out to ensure they were higher than everyone. Every higher fighter group at equal numbers at equal alt you see, you turn and run away from. A sky full of posturing planes that never engage if the fight is fair, always avoiding, and if engaged everyone flees at top speed. There is no furball to get your easy BnZ kills from. There is no heavy slow F4U to BnZ because no one is prepping fields.   The game would be so boring everyone would quit and there would be no game. 

A game is played for the enjoyment of all players. If you aren't making the game fun for the opposition, if you aren't giving them a reasonable chance to out "fly you" and win, there will cease to be an opposition which is the end of the game. By definition your gameplay style is bad for the game because "never dying" is the wrong objective in a GAME. That's the objective in a real war. The objective in a game should be to win by learning to out fly, out shoot, and out bomb your opponents. If that was everyone objective gameplay would improve greatly.

No I'm not suggesting every fight is perfectly fair. Yes I know base taking objective call for vulching, ganging during a base assault. But don't let those scenarios be a the excuse for strategies purely committed to ganging, picking, and running.  It just...lame. Dying isn't that terrible. I do it all the time.

Play hard, fight hard, engage the enemy!  It's much more fun for everyone.  :salute

Vinkman

Jeez Vink... why are u now complaining... it has always been that way  :salute
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 02:38:18 PM »
Most people define "Sportsmanship" as whenever the opponent plays the way they want them to.


I don't think that's so (not that there are statistics to establish it one way or the other).  AH has always had a tension between those who view it as a sport and those who view it as a re-enactment/simulation and/or as a goal-focused win-the-war venture.  Vinkman (and I) fall into the first category, many others fall into the others.  I hate getting picked when I'm involved in a good knife fight, but I'm sure the guy who picks me fancies himself a wingman performing his wingman duty, or increasing his side's chances of winning the map.  The game needs both types.  The trick is for the sportsman types to control their tempers.

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Offline Vinkman

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 02:59:45 PM »
Jeez Vink... why are u now complaining... it has always been that way  :salute

Because every once in a while a new generation needs to be educated.  :salute
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 03:03:38 PM »
Well, I suppose you could take a pony up to 20k and fight them on even ground.  But what you really want it for them to fly the planes you want them to fly, at the altitude you prefer them to be at, and attack in the manner you are most comfortable with.   

You read the half you wanted to read.   If I go to alt to fight them on even ground...they run.


Most people define "Sportsmanship" as whenever the opponent plays the way they want them to.

There is no game I can think of where people think it's "sportsman like" to run away and not play for fear of losing.  :salute
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Offline Spikes

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2021, 03:14:24 PM »
There is no game I can think of where people think it's "sportsman like" to run away and not play for fear of losing.  :salute
Uh...like every PvP game ever invented this happens.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2021, 03:17:58 PM »
Uh...like every PvP game ever invented this happens.

But they are bad people, and should feel bad.  :rolleyes:

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Offline scott66

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2021, 04:00:06 PM »
Ahhh the score squad
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2021, 05:24:45 PM »
The trick is for the sportsman types to control their tempers.


Or accept getting laughed at for trying to tell others how to play their $15's worth.  :cool:

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2021, 05:48:37 PM »
I agree 100% with Vinkman. Im sure that this type of play/flying is in the top 5 reasons people quit this game.

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2021, 05:50:25 PM »
I love those princesses, when you run them down in a Yak their tears are delicious.

Offline Simon

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Re: Unsportsmanlike game play
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2021, 06:46:46 PM »
Right on, Vink, as usual, but I think there are a lot more displays of poor gamesmanship than the examples you give. Stick-stirring Yak3s (and Doras, to a lesser degree) that won't engage unless you're already fighting are at the top of my list. The runners and the ones that bail or ditch to avoid dogfights are only minor annoyances in comparison.