Author Topic: 2007 Redux Part 2  (Read 6443 times)

Offline Eagler

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2007 Redux Part 2
« on: January 14, 2022, 12:52:54 PM »
Started this thread to replace CptTrips original thread I seem to have gotten locked discussing one of the markets mover and shakers...

As CptTrips was providing good info on the market,  I apologize for getting it closed

I will refrain from including that subject matter in this thread

Eagler
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 02:19:23 PM »

It's been one heck of a party....but that hang-over is going to be a boetch!

https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc220114/


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Offline RotBaron

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2022, 03:03:40 AM »
Started this thread to replace CptTrips original thread I seem to have gotten locked discussing one of the markets mover and shakers...

As CptTrips was providing good info on the market,  I apologize for getting it closed

I will refrain from including that subject matter in this thread

Eagler


Not sure that was it, but what do I know…

Only the man that locked it does, unless he PM’d and warned someone…

There were personal attacks, politics and other things I’d figure did it. 

I’m no saint in that regard, but trying harder not to respond to that stuff.
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline Eagler

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2022, 06:31:58 AM »
A good sign the fed is truly removing the punch bowl will be when bad news actually sinks the market...

In the past the markets would rise with bad financial news as they knew the fed would keep pumping billions into it..

Waiting for that to happen

Eagler
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Offline Eviscerate

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2022, 07:34:18 AM »
discussing one of the markets mover and shakers...
:rolleyes:

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2022, 12:43:45 PM »
Some highlights from my weekly email “discussion” with my Perma-Bull friend…

So my friend asserts that if the Fed starts tightening and the Stock Market does start to collapse, the Fed will simply reverse and that snap of the fingers will instantly stop any crash,  ergo, there can be no significant crash.  He says I can’t have it both ways.  I can’t claim the Fed pumped us up to these levels , have kept things levitated at these levels, can cause a crash by stopping the printing,  yet claim they can’t reverse a collapse by resuming printing again.  I can’t have it both ways.

Yes I can. ;)

The Fed has mechanical levers they can actuate to effect markets.  But sometimes human psychology at it’s emotion extremes become impervious to Fed intervention for a period of time until people calm down enough to listen to what the Fed is trying to tell them.   e.g.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/irrationalexuberance.asp
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflationarypsychology.asp
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/panicselling.asp
etc.

The Fed wakes up in cold sweats thinking about markets emotional extremes.  That’s when no one listens to them for a while and they are utterly powerless in the face of pure, raw, human emotion.  It’s that moment of horror when they try and wiggle the joystick and nothing responds and they realize the control cables have been shot away.

That is not just an opinion I’m pulling out of my ying-yang.  I’m staring at the actually historical data from the 2001 and 2008 market crashes.  The Fed desperately slashed rates by heroic percentages all through those crashes trying to reverse the collapse with little discernible effect.  In fact, maybe no effect.  It may just be that those panics simply had to play themselves out.

My friend assets yes they did stop the collapse.  They stopped it from going even further.  Hmmmm...Okaaaay.   But it didn’t stop a 54+% drop in 2008 or a 76+% drop in 2001.  I don’t know about you guys, but that is not a ride I want to take so close to retirement.  Remembering that it took the NASDAQ 15 years to get back to break-even after DotCom.

My reading of historical data suggests that after a crash, after the markets has wiped away it’s tears and blown their nose, the Fed can nudge investors and tell them,

“Hey man, buck up.  Here you want some free money to gamble with?  Com’on. You can do it.  Borrow on some margin and speculate and make back some of those losses.”

“Sniff..well...ok...sniff...I’ll give it another try.”

When things are trending up, and investors are feeling like Masters of the Universe,  the Fed can break out the mirror and lay down another line and hand the market a straw,

“Here ya go my man!  Risk-On!  Risk-On, Dog!”

“Oh Hell ya! Sniiiiiiiiiiif.  I say HELLL YA!  THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT!!!!!”

But once some has yelled “FIRE!!!!!” in that crowded strip bar and everyone is stomping each others guts out trying to get to the exit, if the Fed tries to stand in front of them waving free debt to buy on margin risk assets that are going up in smoke all around them, they are going to get punched in the mouth,

“Get the fk out of our way!!!!!!  We gotta get out of here!!!!!!!”

Here are couple of data points I suggested my friend should carefully weigh. 

* I don’t think Powell is the dove he has appeared to be lately.  I think by nature, he is an old school moderate hawk.  I think a couple of factors have forced him to lean further dovish than he would have preferred:

1.  I think he felt as chairman he had to tilt to the prevailing committee sentiment.  The committee has been decidedly dovish and Powell felt it was important for the chairman to not look out of step because a sense of consensus is needed for market stability.  I don’t think he felt he had the freedom to vote how he would have voted as a mere governor rather than as a chairman.

2.  I think he made a tactical assessment that he had to appear a little dovish to get past his renomination and confirmation.  Despite where you see him plotted based on recent voting, I think you will begin to see moderately more hawkish Powell more in line with his true internal beliefs.

*  Not all the Fed governors vote every year.  Only a subset.  In 2022, the voting slate of governors are rotating to a majority of hawks.  I believe Powell will now lean hawkish to show consensus with the hawkish majority.




*  Powell has a known concern for excessive wealth inequality in our country and the risks that poses to social cohesion and stability.   I find it hard to believe he is going to be comfortable watching average American working families get monkey-pounded by crushing inflation in order to protect the stock market for 10% of the population that own 90% of all risk assets.  Especially given the obscene returns they have already seen over the decade in the distorted market.

Good for them.  But they should have been taking some of those profits off the table before now.  If they haven’t, then maybe they need to learn the lesson of Moral Hazard.  People choose to invest in the stock market.  No one is forcing them by law.  They are called Risk Assets for a reason.  It was never intended that there should be a permanent guarantee of extreme profits under all possible circumstances. 

Those that are still full Risk-On are either not paying attention, or they are so greedy they are willing to rush in front of an on-coming freight-train to pick up pennies off the tracks.  Either way, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I’ve personally had enough.  I’m Risk-Off. But maybe inflation will disappear magically.  I could be totally wrong.  If by summer the market has not even blinked, then I will have to re-evaluate and consider DCA back in, but I needed to re-allocate anyway and get much more conservative.  I was way over my skis. 

Still, Beware the Ides of March:



« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:48:59 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2022, 11:06:06 PM »
i got a question if raising minimum wage raises prices.  then why not just lower wages for everybody and stop higher prices for everybody?


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Offline Brooke

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 02:29:33 AM »
Setting minimum wages higher than market rates results in some higher prices.  But that's not the main problem.  The main problem is that it puts a bunch of people out of work.  The employer doesn't hire a person whose wage is higher than what the work is worth.  In economic terms, you set the price of the labor too high, and now you have a surplus of it (i.e., people who want work who now can't get it).

Setting salary caps are bad in the opposite way.  The worker doesn't take a job that pays less than what the work is worth.  In economic terms, you set the price of labor too low, and now you have a scarcity of it (i.e., employers who want to hire but can't get people to do it).

The more you deviate from how a free market sets prices, the worse the consequences.  Deviate a lot, and you get how markets work in Venezuela, Cuba, and the Soviet Union.

All of this stuff is well laid out in an excellent and short book:  Economics in One Lesson, by Hazlitt.  Or a longer one that is a more thorough:  Basic Economics, by Sowell.  These are marvelous books.  On my list of 10 best and most-useful books to read in one's life.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 03:26:18 PM »


What's going to happen this year?  I have no idea.  No one can.  I have some suspicions that I think are > 50% probability.

First a caveat or two.  ;)

There is clearly some component of the inflation we are seeing that is a temporary COVID-surge related blip.  I think heading into early summer that will ease and factories will get rolling full capacity and supply chain will untangle mostly.  That will help ease pressure.

I do believe there is also more system inflation embedded in that will take some effort to tame.  Wage inflation is a big one.  I bet once salaries have risen, it will be hard to pull that back.   Wage inflation is sticky until the recession bites which I don't expect until after stocks begin to crash.

If inflation somehow magically disappeared then all calculations go back to square 1.   If the Fed can hold inflation and unemployment at < 5% both, I think they will go back to a much more gradual approach. 

Of course at any point some black swan event like a couple of regional shooting wars could also have unpredictable effects.

I have no crystal ball, but all other factors being equal, based on behaviors from past marketed crashes, a pattern that might be repeated would look something like:

1.  Increased volatility Q1.
2.  Q1 15-20% market pullback to something around SP 4000-4100.  Bulls will retreat and try and reform.
3.  Dead Cat Bounce Q2-Q3.  Bulls will blow the trumpet and rally and make a last ditch assault to try and retake the SP 4600 defensive wall.  Their war cry will be "we survived the crash!  Risk-On!"
4.  I believe they will fail (Q4) and at that point, break themselves on that wall, and rout, falling back in disarray being chased by cavalry. 
5.  How far will they run?  Where is the bottom at?  <shrug>  The closer we get to SP 2000-2200, the more likely I will be to cautiously DCA some back in.

Note: phase 5 might drag out for 12-24 months.  16 months would be the average from past events, but this one seems to be behaving in an accelerated manner.  So I'm not looking at timing other that as a general suggestions.  I'm looking for when things get closer to some reasonable distance from less deranged Buffet Indicator level.  Along the way there will be several Sucker-Rally attempts.  Each one will have less conviction behind it than the last but will still sucker in plenty who just can't believe it will drop any further.  They always think that.

In no way am I saying that is what will happen; but that is one possible scenario that I'd give > 50% probability.




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Offline Eagler

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 04:34:46 PM »
With as much funny money the fed had pumped into the market I think it all needs to fall below 2016 levels to have any real correction

I don't think they have the stones to get it anywhere near that so wherever the market is when they start pumping again it will not be the correction it should be IMO

Eagler
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 04:40:48 PM »
With as much funny money the fed had pumped into the market I think it all needs to fall below 2016 levels to have any real correction

I don't think they have the stones to get it anywhere near that so wherever the market is when they start pumping again it will not be the correction it should be IMO

Eagler

Again, you shouldn't necessarily assume they have perfect control to stop an irrational panic once it starts.

If so, they would have stopped 2008 and 2001 at only minor correction level. 

Once it starts turning turtle, it might not be stoppable until its run its course.





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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 11:00:39 PM »

Is China's shaky real estate market "house of cards" 2022's Lehman Brothers?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/17/china-warns-west-against-rapid-interest-rate-rise



Maybe the next Black Swan is really a Peking Duck.  (Did you see what I did there?  :cool:)

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2022, 09:44:17 AM »
Guido Goldman leans back in his chair, feet up on desk, and lights a big fat cigar with the end of a $100 bill.

"So listen Chump, here is the deal:  You buy $1000 in stawks from me today, then hold that risky dogsh|t for me for 10 years, and at the end of that 10 years I promise to buy it back off you for... $960.  Sound like a deal?"



Risk-on or Risk-Off?  The Buffett Indicator.  Simple enough to calculate with grade-school arithmetic.  Not a crystal ball, but a solid sanity check.  Anything below 100% is a good investment.  Anything above 100% is Las Vegas.  At this level it's Las Vegas, on coke, in bed with an HIV positive hooker, playing Russian Roulette.



(This chart begins at 1950, but I assure you, it has never been at this level.  Not even close.  Not in 1929.  Not in the entire history of the United States.)

Good luck with that.





« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 09:56:12 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline Eagler

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2022, 10:32:11 AM »
Could be the end of America's run unless we keep it going with a good ole war once the bottom drops out and we are exposed as fakes living way beyond our means on credit for decades..

Eagler
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: 2007 Redux Part 2
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2022, 11:56:42 AM »
Could be the end of America's run unless we keep it going with a good ole war once the bottom drops out and we are exposed as fakes living way beyond our means on credit for decades..

Eagler


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