Ukrainian Breakthrough at Izyum

[RotBaron]

it really isn't hard to follow events if you get away from the MSM and Alt Rgt or other sources that put forth their own agenda at all times and report "news" that reinforces it.  Find some decent forums where people discuss/ debate and rationally.  That way you get all sides of the story and some SME's with deep knowledge add a lot of perspective.

Who/where is Alt Rgt?

[rabbidrabbit]

Who/where is Alt Rgt?

Alt Right..  what used to be Alex Jones territory but now is a lot more of what you might call Black Pilled people.  Basically most of the people automatically opposed to whatever the current thing is.  In the Ukraine case that would be the folks who embraced Russian propaganda such as Nazis! and Russia had no choice because UA was going to join NATO, Biolabs! and a whole bunch of false narratives.  Like most propaganda, there are pecks of truths somewhere but the narratives are lies.  The problem is that people become so polarized that truth does not matter anymore and it is happening in a lot of directions.  You can find different false narratives on the "left" as well.

My point is we should all value the truth and ideals we grew up with instead of letting other people divide us while doing bad things.  Society functions when it is built on common values.  When the value break down so does society.

[RotBaron]

Seems like you’re inferring anyone who doesn’t support US involvement in Ukraine is alt right and has bought into Russian propaganda, is that correct?

[rabbidrabbit]

Seems like you’re inferring anyone who doesn’t support US involvement in Ukraine is alt right and has bought into Russian propaganda, is that correct?

Not at all.  I'm directly saying that people that latch on to false narratives to include the Russian propaganda ones I listed above are doing every American a disservice.  There are very reasonable arguments to not support the Ukrainians defending themselves and there are also legitimate concerns about accountability and how US taxpayer money gets handled by our government.  Those legitimate discussions get drowned out by people who embrace falsehoods simply because they are "on their side".  People tend to let themselves be polarized at the expense of honesty and that behavior is what I'm saying is cancerous to society.

The other side of the same coin is even more destructive but this is a UA thread and I don't want the thread shut down for domestic politics.

[Eagler]

Not sure what to believe in Ukraine..

Besides innocent civilian lives being lost the rest is anyone's guess depending on what you except as the truth

There are US supported nazis (enemy of my enemy is my friend) and there were bio labs there...but we are to believe there wasn't?

I do know every billion of military might we ship over there is making the military complex that much richer at the expense of higher prices on everything for everyone else..

Don't see them stopping it anytime soon as it is very profitable and a great scrape goat

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

Not sure what to believe in Ukraine..

Besides innocent civilian lives being lost the rest is anyone's guess depending on what you except as the truth

There are US supported nazis (enemy of my enemy is my friend) and there were bio labs there...but we are to believe there wasn't?

I do know every billion of military might we ship over there is making the military complex that much richer at the expense of higher prices on everything for everyone else..

Don't see them stopping it anytime soon as it is very profitable and a great scrape goat

Eagler

The way I work through things and figure out what the actual facts are.  If you want to, I'll share what I know but in a nutshell, the UA Nazis narrative is basically roadkill.  There are labs in UA and the US military was paying them for access to their research.  The rest of the bioweapons narrative is also BS.  There has been a heavy push into conservative circles to push dishonest narratives such as these to undermine conservative support of UA.  There are a lot of legit concerns but there is also, more than ever, polarization formed by these false narratives and it successful at turning us against our neighbors.  It's hardly a conservative issue.  It's at least as bad on the other side of the coin.  My point is we owe it to ourselves to do the right thing for the right reason and not be chumped by those who want to undermine our society for their own gains.

[Eviscerate]

The other side of the same coin is even more destructive but this is a UA thread and I don't want the thread shut down for domestic politics.

Don't worry - if there's anyone who can get a thread locked it is Eagler spewing political conspiracies and nonsense.

[rabbidrabbit]

Don't worry - if there's anyone who can get a thread locked it is Eagler spewing political conspiracies and nonsense.

That's his choice.  He also has a choice to have a sincere conversation for the betterment of all.  BTW, this place is full of people who get threads shut down so pointing at him because you don't agree with him isn't entirely fair.

[Eagler]

Not trying to lock anything..but seems you are

But please report me as I am 78% watched - after going over 80 for several days and being muted - and it seems easier to silence than respond for some

I believe some want out of the war as they realize they can't afford to be in it..will be interesting for Europe when winter sets in..

But if the news is accurate the Russians are dropping everything and fleeing and victory for Ukraine is right around the corner...

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

I think Kherson is about to fall and it's possible given how spent the Russian military is that the collapse of the Karkiv district could continue.  It's possible but not a guarantee. 

[RotBaron]

Shipping $ and weapons, some quite advanced for Ukrainian soldiers (where are they getting training) is essentially a proxy war. Not to mention all this $ “aid” to a notoriously corrupt country should have Americans marching in the streets demanding accountability of where/on what their tax $ are being spent.

Unfortunately the majority are probably much more knowledgeable about what happens on their FB feed than in the world outside their bubble, the younger the worse…

As has become the norm; the little guy gets the bill and screwed.

[-gg-]

Xi Jinping is set to meet Putin in person this week. Russia has asked China for military and economic aid, and I believe they just made a huge energy deal - where China agreed to buy Russian oil and gas in rubles and in gold.

Who knows what's on the table here, but China could potentially bring a lot of support directly into the conflict. Same for Russia's local alllies.

I don't think failure is an option for Putin, and that scares me. What will Putin resort to in order to keep power to to not fail?

In my opinion, a  best case scenario is one in which Putin is toppled from within and they pull out of Ukraine. Not sure what kind of odds there are for that happening.

[MiloMorai]

Shipping $ and weapons, some quite advanced for Ukrainian soldiers (where are they getting training) is essentially a proxy war. Not to mention all this $ “aid” to a notoriously corrupt country should have Americans marching in the streets demanding accountability of where/on what their tax $ are being spent.

Unfortunately the majority are probably much more knowledgeable about what happens on their FB feed than in the world outside their bubble, the younger the worse…

As has become the norm; the little guy gets the bill and screwed.

Tell me about this corruption.

As for marching in the street, that was tried Jan 6 due to 'corruption'.

[rabbidrabbit]

Shipping $ and weapons, some quite advanced for Ukrainian soldiers (where are they getting training) is essentially a proxy war. Not to mention all this $ “aid” to a notoriously corrupt country should have Americans marching in the streets demanding accountability of where/on what their tax $ are being spent.

Unfortunately the majority are probably much more knowledgeable about what happens on their FB feed than in the world outside their bubble, the younger the worse…

As has become the norm; the little guy gets the bill and screwed.

It's no secret that they are getting trained by just about everyone so i don't know why you make it sound insidious.

It's perfectly reasonable to demand as a US citizen that our foreign aid be reasonably accounted for.  However, you really are pushing one side, the Russian side, of the narrative.

I'm perfectly fine with our weapons that were built for the purpose of demilitarizing our foes actually doing so.   Fascist Russia is certainly our foe.  Can you explain to me why the Uke people don't have the right to defend themselves? Isn't that what we Americans believe as a fundamental premise of our society?

[guncrasher]

Not sure what to believe in Ukraine..

Besides innocent civilian lives being lost the rest is anyone's guess depending on what you except as the truth

There are US supported nazis (enemy of my enemy is my friend) and there were bio labs there...but we are to believe there wasn't?

I do know every billion of military might we ship over there is making the military complex that much richer at the expense of higher prices on everything for everyone else..

Don't see them stopping it anytime soon as it is very profitable and a great scrape goat

Eagler

bio lab is a generic term. not necessarily only used for the production of was materials even though some can be used for both.

you can even have a bio lab in your kitchen using a few products.


semp