Author Topic: Proximity Dar  (Read 4753 times)

Offline LilMak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1323
Proximity Dar
« on: June 21, 2024, 11:04:26 AM »
Can we get rid of proximity radar? I understand it was implemented to encourage fights but darbar was always sufficient before it was introduced. It’s having severe negative effects on gameplay in my opinion.

The other night I was on the fringe of a friendly radar ring when I was basically the only member of my team in the sky. On the complete opposite side was a group of 5-6 enemies basically capping at high altitude. I encountered single con on my side of the ring and almost immediately, when I got in icon range, every single plane turned straight for me.

I understand there are coms and text but those still have a bit of fog associated with them. I was far enough away that I doubt this guy was in range of the local radio. Even though I dispatched the player in question quickly (pretty sure he was AFK), I was covered up in short order. They not only had my exact location, they also knew my direction of travel the whole time because the player I killed flopped down from 12k still “alive” but missing a wing. 

Proximity dar is ruining aspects of the game like the need for situational awareness. Players don’t even need to look out of the cockpit to see if an enemy is in range.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
~Hub Zemke
P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6653
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2024, 12:19:25 PM »
Can we get rid of proximity radar? I understand it was implemented to encourage fights but darbar was always sufficient before it was introduced. It’s having severe negative effects on gameplay in my opinion.

The other night I was on the fringe of a friendly radar ring when I was basically the only member of my team in the sky. On the complete opposite side was a group of 5-6 enemies basically capping at high altitude. I encountered single con on my side of the ring and almost immediately, when I got in icon range, every single plane turned straight for me.

I understand there are coms and text but those still have a bit of fog associated with them. I was far enough away that I doubt this guy was in range of the local radio. Even though I dispatched the player in question quickly (pretty sure he was AFK), I was covered up in short order. They not only had my exact location, they also knew my direction of travel the whole time because the player I killed flopped down from 12k still “alive” but missing a wing. 

Proximity dar is ruining aspects of the game like the need for situational awareness. Players don’t even need to look out of the cockpit to see if an enemy is in range.

+1

Should not show up on proximity dar outside of radar rings. I agree that is takes a bit of strategy away along with the conga line coming to dogpile you. You also got a kill, so that told all of them who you were aswell, and so they could adjust their style accordingly. I dislike both.
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline xanax

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 319
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2024, 02:23:46 PM »
I agree. flying with your kneeboard in view, zoomed in, pretty much full time, takes away from the fun a bit. I liked the butterflies you'd get not knowing were the cons were. I also liked knowing they might not see me coming either. Head on a swivel, baby!
The Damned
Founded 1988

Offline Lazerr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4843
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2024, 03:14:23 PM »
I have to agree with this, even though I agreed with proxy dar previously.

Doesn't just provoke a dog pile, it shows you where to do it.

Offline Skyyr

  • persona non grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2024, 03:34:44 PM »
I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.

Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline LilMak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1323
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2024, 04:08:38 PM »
I’d tend to agree with you on the new player thought. But we don’t really have any of those…Or not nearly enough to justify prox dar. Also, making it even easier for vets to prey on new kids is not what we want. Which is grossly simplified by proximity radar. Ease of radar interpretation is not what’s going to scare a new player away. It’s more likely getting waxed over and over.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
~Hub Zemke
P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18194
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2024, 04:28:05 PM »
Multiple accounts permit the same gamey behavior when combined with unlimited shade logins

But if the additional $$$ keeps the lights on a bit longer I have no problem with this current behavior of some

Eagler
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Lazerr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4843
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2024, 04:41:07 PM »
I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.

Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.

This was my thought when I supported it.. to help the map look more active and help new guys find the fight.

Maybe a bigger delay on these proxy dars would be a middle of the road?

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9417
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2024, 05:04:45 PM »
I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.

Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.


Agreed.

- oldman

Offline LilMak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1323
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2024, 08:34:52 PM »
This was my thought when I supported it.. to help the map look more active and help new guys find the fight.

Maybe a bigger delay on these proxy dars would be a middle of the road?
There definitely needs to be an adjustment. I’d like to see it go back to what it was until a better solution can come along. There’s a bunch of negative unintended consequences that came with prox dar. Much more than it was designed to fix.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
~Hub Zemke
P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.

Offline TryHard

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 409
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2024, 12:54:22 AM »
I wouldn't mind it as much if it wasn't an AWACS flying around with you I feel the update rate should be slowed down a lot lets say to over a minute.

While radar in WW2 could distinguish roughly speaking a bomber from a fighter I also feel like there should be some fuzzy logic there as well. Lets say you have a tight formation of 5 fighters that should show up on radar as the cross section of maybe a formation of bombers.

While getting completely rid of it would probably hurt gameplay by making the fights harder to find I think a healthy compromise will stop it from being used as a bandaid to fix poor situational awareness. I have been flying with mouse and keyboard since before this AWACS radar tom foolery and I never have had an issue before it keeping track of enemy cons. Those flying with track ir or VR have a significant SA advantage already compared to us hat switch and number pad mashing poor folks, don't reckon they need instant radar updates to boot.  :salute

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18194
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2024, 06:24:43 AM »
Skyyr is correct ... putting dar back would result in less players not more

Eagler
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6653
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2024, 09:30:24 AM »
As I stated. Proximity dar should not work outside of radar range.

Also. The original dar, imo, didn't need any adjustment other than making the radar towers harder to kill. Like 5k pounds instead of 250 pounds. This would have made it much harder to  make the dots dissappear inside the radar ring and avoid it being the first thing players destroy when they jabo.
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline thndregg

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2024, 06:45:09 PM »
I prefer the old-fashioned situational awareness we used to rely on. There were enough hints on the map back in the day to keep my eyes open around my own bombers. In multiple flights, multiple eyes were on the lookout, and tactical comms info added to the immersion. I'd like that back instead of the prox-radar "crutch".


EGG
Former C.O. 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy)
"The Ragged Irregulars"

Offline LilMak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1323
Re: Proximity Dar
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2024, 10:40:26 AM »
Ran into the same thing over the weekend. An entire fight was divided between two dar rings. Both sides hovering along an imaginary line. If it wasn’t for a few aggressive players, no fight would’ve occurred. Both teams were hovering and waiting for picks. You could’ve drawn a line between the two groups.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
~Hub Zemke
P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.