Author Topic: player ethos in the bucket  (Read 4459 times)

Offline Shane

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2026, 04:18:45 PM »

You were also talking about exploits - so forgive me if I was confused by your wording and for saying that Knits ( one guy) was attacking 80 while Bish attacked 79.

I was just trying to figure our where you were going.

Double teaming the low side isn't quite an exploit (hiding in buildings) or abuse (such as .rpt) as much as it's.... what words did I use? Oh, right. "...low class."

Now that you're up to speed... ethos...  any opinion on the OP now?
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Offline -gg-

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2026, 04:27:24 PM »
Double teaming the low side isn't quite an exploit (hiding in buildings) or abuse (such as .rpt) as much as it's.... what words did I use? Oh, right. "...low class."

Now that you're up to speed... ethos...  any opinion on the OP now?

Yes.  I don't see it as deliberate double teaming the low side when in your example, Knits were the low side with only 4 players in flight AND owned less of their bases than Rooks.

I see it as 4 players on different sections of the map looking for a fight or something to do. I also see it as needless whining about nothing.


Where was the big hoard? Probably WAY out of the way for the 4 Knits that were on.

Players don't all act as one team.

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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2026, 05:22:57 PM »
Well I almost made it not posting on this thread, but alas, Socktigs got laughing so hard I had to respond, funniest post I've ween n months.  :rofl :rofl

socktigs  :rock :salute
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Offline Shane

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2026, 05:27:47 PM »
Yes.  I don't see it as deliberate double teaming the low side when in your example, Knits were the low side with only 4 players in flight AND owned less of their bases than Rooks.

I see it as 4 players on different sections of the map looking for a fight or something to do. I also see it as needless whining about nothing.


Where was the big hoard? Probably WAY out of the way for the 4 Knits that were on.

Players don't all act as one team.

You're not there in the mornings to have an informed opinion about what is actually happening.  Shall I start posting daily screenshots to prove how cluelessly you're defending that kind of game play?  I don't think any evidence would convince you, tho'
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2026, 06:45:52 PM »
I see it as 4 players on different sections of the map looking for a fight or something to do. I also see it as needless whining about nothing.

Don't underestimate Shame's determination.

He is >< this close to nagging everyone into playing the way he wants.

A couple of thousand more posts and he will be victorious.
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2026, 08:34:25 PM »
Don't underestimate Shame's determination.

He is >< this close to nagging everyone into playing the way he wants.

A couple of thousand more posts and he will be victorious.

Which is weird I underestimate your lack of playing the game in 15 years that you have a clue.

Maybe 2000 more post and we all follow your rotten carrot
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Offline Badboy

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2026, 10:17:28 PM »
Interesting discussion

My take on this is that there is a fairly simple explanation for why, when there are two large sides and one much smaller side online, both large sides tend to attack the small one. We also often see that, when the two large sides eventually have to attack each other, very little defence takes place. Both concentrate on attacking undefended or weakly defended bases in a race to meet the victory conditions first, gaining territory quickly at minimum personal cost and risk.

I don't think this requires collusion or secret alliances. It can arise naturally from a combination of game theory, the incentives built into the game and normal human self interest. Different players and sides can independently make perfectly understandable choices which, taken together, produce behaviour that looks coordinated.

This does not mean that every player shares these motivations. Some players simply want to fight, test their personal skill, fly or drive particular vehicles, or enjoy the game in whatever way appeals to them. There are many different reasons why individuals play. I am not suggesting anything about the motives of any particular player. I am looking only at the overall behaviour we repeatedly see in the arena. If that behaviour occurs consistently, it suggests that these incentives are influencing enough players to shape the behaviour of the sides as a whole.

Let me start with an analogy:

Imagine three men adrift in a lifeboat with only enough food and water for two. Two are much larger and stronger than the third. Assume each acts purely in his own best interest and that any pair can overpower the third.

For either large man, the safest partnership is with the other large man. Together they can overpower the much smaller man with relatively little risk of injury. Joining the small man in a fight against someone of his own size would carry a much greater risk. So both large men independently have the same rational preference: each would rather join the other large man against the weakest. The two large men throw the smaller one overboard, after which there is enough food and water for both and neither has any reason to risk fighting the other.

Nobody needs to particularly like the other large man. Their interests simply coincide because the weakest opponent is the least costly one to confront.

Something similar seems to happen in the game.

Suppose the populations are 100, 90 and 30. The 100 side can fight the 90 side, where resistance and losses are likely to be much greater, or attack the 30 side, where territorial gains should be considerably cheaper. The 90 side independently reaches exactly the same conclusion. No agreement or cooperation between them is required. Both simply choose the easier target: the greatest gain at the lowest expected cost.

The victory conditions reinforce this. A side needs 90% of its own country and 20% of both enemy countries, so both large sides need enemy territory anyway. It therefore makes sense for both to take easy territory from the weak side first and postpone the more expensive fight between themselves.

Eventually the two large sides do have to compete directly, but even then we often see both tending to avoid direct confrontation, each continues attacking rather than defending.

I think this is partly because territory itself has little value beyond counting towards victory, whereas being killed has a direct personal cost to players in points, rank, perks and ego. Capturing weakly defended or undefended territory is therefore much more attractive to an individual player than fighting hard to defend territory elsewhere.

Defence is also often particularly expensive. The attacker chooses the time and place and can concentrate his forces beforehand. Attacking aircraft may already have an altitude advantage, tanks may already be established in strong positions and in numbers, and ships may already be shelling defensive positions before sufficient defenders can react.

The first defenders therefore tend to arrive outnumbered and at a considerable disadvantage. They may have to die repeatedly simply to slow the attack while reinforcements arrive. Even then, many of their side's players may prefer to remain on an attack elsewhere rather than abandon a successful offensive to join a costly defence, so adequate reinforcements may never arrive.

That gives players yet another reason to attack rather than defend.

So I think much of this behaviour follows from one simple incentive:

  • Players tend to seek the territorial gains needed for victory wherever those gains can be obtained at the lowest personal risk and cost.

With a large population imbalance, that means both large sides are naturally drawn towards attacking the small side first. Later, when the large sides must compete with each other, the same incentive can turn the war into a race through each other's weakly defended or undefended territory, with victory going to whichever side captures the required percentages first. The fastest path being the path of least resistance.

That may be frustrating for players who prefer frequent direct combat, while other players may enjoy the teamwork, territorial progress or simply winning the war. There are many different motivations among individual players, and I am not claiming that any particular player is consciously making these calculations.

The point is simply that the overall behaviour is clearly visible in the arena. That suggests these incentives influence enough players to shape the behaviour of the sides as a whole. What looks like collusion can therefore emerge naturally from the game's incentive structure interacting with ordinary human self-interest.

At least that's how it looks to me.

Food for thought.

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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2026, 11:08:37 PM »
Food for thought taken, and agree

However (always a however/but), when it goes to the limits and then harming numbers, that's not a great direction they put the game in.
While a gamer calls it just taking what they can bully, others call it bad sportsmanship and low taste.
When ya take RL logic and mix it with gamer mentality, things kinda go south. Not everyone has a true gamer mentality.

41, 27, 36, that average 5 to 6 out of 7 days is way over the edge.

Most times, they are not fighting much, at one base can be 15 vs 3-5, they are just being drip fed kills and ok with it....and then the defenders tire and leave, and the attackers just continue to milk-run bases.... and that's my point.

When they have 2-3 dar bars full country hordes on each side of the gangers and they put all their eggs in two baskets, one base each,.... that's 4-5 wasted battles that could have promoted fun.

There is no fun at 12 vs 5 almost nightly. So the repeat victims simply log, or group to fight one side and have at least a chance.

In a nut shell, we lose numbers that would have promoted more numbers.
When players aren't having fun too long, they become former players.

More numbers breeds more numbers.
Since it became a rooted habitual, we have not hit critical mass but maybe 1-2 nights per week the last 2 months. You're in trouble.
Critical Mass (about 100-120) is center point, or 0 on a meter.
Below CM - Less numbers breeds less numbers.
Ya need to be well over critical mass, but ya can't there because they are chased to log. Catch 22.

I feel aromatic aroma of spite when ya try to convince them do it not so much.
"You asked us not to, therefore we shall".
"It's hurts numbers/game"
"Ya, but it's funny"

Al-righty then!
Whata ya gonna do with that?
Play non-stop wack-a-mole and depend on settings in an attempt to control human nature?
Or no settings and it just goes into a rapid spiral? (Yes it absolutely will)

It's a science no one seems to have the answer. Obviously HT is trying to find that.

This would all be just funny if we still had 500-750 in the MA, but then it probably wouldn't happen at all, too many battles.

It doesn't hurt me, it hurts the game.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2026, 11:26:02 PM by Animl-AW »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2026, 11:18:16 PM »
The point is simply that the overall behaviour is clearly visible in the arena. That suggests these incentives influence enough players to shape the behaviour of the sides as a whole. What looks like collusion can therefore emerge naturally from the game's incentive structure interacting with ordinary human self-interest.

Exactly.  It's a game-design issue.

No amount of foot stomping or nagging will change anything.

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2026, 12:02:38 AM »
Badboy has it right.

But
It's a human nature problem in a melee situation. It's not a design error, it is the MMP design and it's been here for 38 years.
AW was not any different.

This is the same exact problem when AW went south below CM. It's not the first time I've seen it, and I know the possible outcome.

It's not meant to be a formal red felt smokers jacket with a pipe and brandy by a fireplace design. It's meant to be Bat S crazy, rock & roll, not a symphony.
A bad game design is one that has very little fights.

Bad game designs don't keep lifers for 27 yrs and rolling like this has.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2026, 12:07:22 AM by Animl-AW »
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Offline captain1ma

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2026, 07:32:35 AM »
at the end of the day its just a game. play it any way you like. i prefer organized and atleast a little courtesy, but at the end of the day. its just a game. have fun and stop taking it so seriously!  :noid  :bolt:

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2026, 08:17:32 AM »
Notice who jumped in to feed the negativity.
Someone who is rarely right about anything. But talks the Game God talk as if he is. Yet did a lot of damage here with passive aggressive bashing, skimming and having the ignorant do illegal acts for him. Or have his manipulated puppy boys come in to stir the pot.

For god sakes him and his pups closed a music thread.  Blaming me for locks, seems threads are licked without me in them.

All in a game bbs of a game he hasn’t played in 15 years, but has an opinion on what goes on inside of it.

Dude sells snake oil, the ignorant buy it.

Surprised we didn’t get a dcs video.


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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2026, 08:40:34 AM »
at the end of the day its just a game. play it any way you like. i prefer organized and atleast a little courtesy, but at the end of the day. its just a game. have fun and stop taking it so seriously!  :noid  :bolt:

True enough, it’s just a game.
But some choose to play it in ways that doesn’t allow others to play the way they like. That’s where the anger comes from. They prevent the fun of others. Sure they can do that their way. They can also end up shooting empty beer cans because they shove players out.

Kinda like rights, you have rights only until it impedes the rights of others. And thats why HT uses ENY and side balancing. To avoid this exact problem. Others want to be able to play the way they choose too. Because when they can’t they leave. It’s that simple.

When you spend more time in the MA you’ll start to notice irritating patterns.

Take note who is not in this convo like the black plague, the ones who rip fun from ohers. They know we know who they are, they ran out of lame excuses.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2026, 08:44:02 AM by Animl-AW »
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Offline -gg-

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2026, 12:33:35 PM »
Well part of the game is winning the war. To win the war you have to take bases and take away things players don't like. Lol. I mean that's literally part of the game. You take away the vehicle hangers you can go bomb the strat and take away things that they use to enjoy the game. Lol. If your object is to win the war you start taking everybody's bases. You shoot other people down when they're trying to fly somewhere.  I'm sure they don't like that but that's part of the game. lol

The only thing that I would consider bad is people who are cheating or something. Other than that you play within the limits of the game and nothing you do is going to be something that's wrong or bad.

Everybody likes to do different things. For me, I don't complain about anything people do in the game. If there's a hoard there's a horde. Deal with it.

The only thing wrong with the game are people who expect other people to want to respect a certain ethos in the game regarding base capture or whatever. That's never going to happen.



« Last Edit: September 06, 2026, 12:53:30 PM by -gg- »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2026, 01:28:43 PM »
The only thing wrong with the game are people who expect other people to want to respect a certain ethos in the game regarding base capture or whatever. That's never going to happen.

Exactly.  Grown adults do not care for other players finger-wagging at them telling them how to play.  Some people around here think someone put them in charge.

The only rules anyone has to follow are from HTC, and the constraints built into the software.  Within that, they can play as they please.  THAT is the entire point of a sandbox.

This game was designed as a 3-sided war.  Any side can attack any other as they please.  It might attack based on maximizing it's victory odds, or it might be settling scores against a side that usually dominates and is temporarily under-populated.

If HT thought that was a problem, he'd have coded it differently.  That is why I said it was a game-design issue, not a game-design problem. 

It is how the game was designed.

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.