Author Topic: 38 very tight turning :) (Read 792 times)

Nath[BDP] · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:07:24 AM »

But I taught Funked what he knows, so in essence I'm your god.

Staga · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:11:13 AM »

hmm you taught to funked that Spit is a cool plane?

Apar · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:37:59 AM »

Well I tried hammerheads in the P38 after being prettythang whooped by fester when I tried to Hammerhead him in a dora (I had more E!!! and the distance was good to try it). I just couldn't believe that he was able to just hang there at almost no speed at all anymore and to get a good No of pings in me at 400-450 distance!!! I had to rudder turn the dora to prevent a major stall way before him, no need to say what happened to me a split second later,

Because I just couldn't believe that that was possible I went to the DA the day after and tried my own very best at hammereheads in the P38 to try out upto which speed it is possible in AH to stay vertical stable (to be able to still correct for getting a gun solution on the con above you).

Well at full flaps and compensating manually for full flaps with elevator trim you can hang the P38 on its props and still flick it over on pure rudder at very very low speeds (much lower than in any other plane without stalling)

laz · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2002, 03:19:20 PM »

A low and slow p38 is a dead p38?.. I disagree. I get at least 75% of my kills with p38 low and slow. It handles nice low (minus) the load of toejame flap stall. I am not saying that i am good, or even decent 38 pilot, but if your cherry picking at 27k with it, and getting kills, your not really earning them

. Thats why i love the challenge of low-alt fights, even though i die frequently =)

Hangtime · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2002, 03:32:44 PM »

look.. please, do enjoy pushing the envelope in the forked tailed gay-ray ride.. hell; I turnfight a runstang in the dirt all the damn time, and we all know a low slow pony is a dead pony.

i think the point i was trying to make originaly was that a good turnfighter like a spit vis a p38 low and slow.. pilot skill being about equal; well; the p38 ain't likely to go home.

of course, thats just my uninformed opinion; hell; i could be wrong..

BigCrate · « **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2002, 03:41:57 PM »

Like the article said hang.
Everthing depended on the opposing pilot's ability.
I just thought the 38 in AH is model pretty clost to the 38 in real life it could do this... and the article said the 38 would give the spit a run fer its money but not beat it.. but maybe it out turn a 109 doing this?? Who knows

CW

Wotan · « **Reply #21 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:14:35 PM »

anything can out turn a 109 geeshhhh

if the 109 pilot most likely wont enter a slow turn fight with a 38 in the main if he expects to rtb.

Tac · « **Reply #22 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:19:28 PM »

only a 109f4 has a chance in turnfighting vs a 38.

38 vs spit low and slow... depends on how slow it is. below 150 the spit has a high chance of not making it home or of losing the 38 if it decides to run away at that point. from 150 to 300 the 38 is dead.

below 150 you aint turnfighting, you're stallfighting. 38 is the master of stall fighting.

BigCrate · « **Reply #23 on:** January 17, 2002, 04:45:15 PM »

LOL now yall get into it!!!! ok if the 38 is the master of stalling fights Tac.. Can this work??? I'm bee gonna up in bout 20 mins to try it out it worked in aw sort of cause in AW u could stall at low speeds and it "mushes" like the article said it does but in AH i havn't seen this yet so I dunno if it would work... U should take something like this on faith and just try it .. If it works 38 might have an edge over tighter turning aircraft at low speeds...

CW
Beware the lesons of a fight pilot who would rather fly a slide rule the kick your ass!
=Twin Engined Devils=

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2002, 05:15:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BigCrate
it worked in aw sort of cause in AW u could stall at low speeds and it "mushes" like the article said it does but in AH i havn't seen this yet so I dunno if it would work... U should take something like this on faith and just try it .. If it works 38 might have an edge over tighter turning aircraft at low speeds...

I don't see this working against an experienced Spit pilot... and in my experience, anytime the 38 gets slow -- including below 150mph -- it's probably going to die.

Where a 38 functions best against a Spit is BnZing, maybe turning once or twice, then extending and using its superior climb, vertical ability, and acceleration to gain altitude and angles again. Once it commits to any sort of low speed turn/stallfighting with a Spit, it's begging for death unless the Spit really stinks.

-- Todd/Leviathn

BigCrate · « **Reply #25 on:** January 17, 2002, 05:42:33 PM »

Ok dead u need to read the article 1st b4 u can say anything bout it

"Everthing depended on the opposing pilot's ability."
LOL I should have put this in with to. Ok stalls.. In Aw you could stall at any point during a fight if u pulling enough gs to it. (it is just easier to do a slower speeds) What the man is saying is the u perform this turn or what ever u want to call it.. below lets say 225 mph (i never stalled above that in AW) once the plane is on the verge of a stall lets say 175mph pulling 4-5gs with 3 notches of flaps deployed you gently relax pressure on the stick and increase pressure on the stick and u can edge your way around the turn very quickly. It doesn't mean u are about to stall at 80mph with full flaps deployed and throttle chopped.. This is what I'm trying to point out here.. if u pull to many gs ur aircraft wont produce enough lift and it will stall.. but this is saying u can aviod this by relaxing and increasing the pressure on the stick..
Sorry I didn't put tha in with the article wasn't thinking

.. i hope this help out to try to understand what the article is telling us.

CW

Tac · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2002, 06:00:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying

I don't see this working against an experienced Spit pilot... and in my experience, anytime the 38 gets slow -- including below 150mph -- it's probably going to die.

Where a 38 functions best against a Spit is BnZing, maybe turning once or twice, then extending and using its superior climb, vertical ability, and acceleration to gain altitude and angles again. Once it commits to any sort of low speed turn/stallfighting with a Spit, it's begging for death unless the Spit really stinks.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Well, an experienced 38 wont get into turning with a spit either. And I said the spit has a hi chance, not that it would. At 150mph the 38 is full flaps and stable,its engines giving it enough power to keep pulling without a problem. The spit is suffering from constant torque effects and E-loss and low accel. Eventually the spit either gets a snapshot with its 20mm's and gets the 38 (likely), or the 38 gets a snapshot at the spit (likely), or the spit augers (happens some times), or the spit is about to stall and tries to level off and gain some speed.. and thats the point where depending on positioning, the 38 can hose it with lead or he can retract flaps, nose away from spit and WEP the hell outta there.

38 can only BnZ a spit if the 38 has a lot of E advantage. Those damn spits just need to dive 2 or 4k to get co-E with a 38..and we both know which planes loses its E quicker... the 38!. Climb away? You watching too many movies. That spit will level off, get close, pull up and hose you with 20mm. 38 cant outclimb 20mm.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #27 on:** January 17, 2002, 09:03:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
Well, an experienced 38 wont get into turning with a spit either. And I said the spit has a hi chance, not that it would. At 150mph the 38 is full flaps and stable,its engines giving it enough power to keep pulling without a problem. The spit is suffering from constant torque effects and E-loss and low accel. Eventually the spit either gets a snapshot with its 20mm's and gets the 38 (likely), or the 38 gets a snapshot at the spit (likely), or the spit augers (happens some times), or the spit is about to stall and tries to level off and gain some speed.. and thats the point where depending on positioning, the 38 can hose it with lead or he can retract flaps, nose away from spit and WEP the hell outta there.

[/B]

Are you talking in the pure vertical here? Of course the 38 has an advantage against the Spit in any vertical situation at slow speeds. What I was discussing was getting into a turnfighting situation at or below 150mph. Unless you're trying to rope a Spit or spiral climb above it with similar E-states and extremely low speed, a competent Spit will destroy you. Where (as I also stated) a 38 excels is using its advantages -- namely vertical ability as you described. However, if the 38 is trying to loop at 150mph against a competent Spit, it will die. I can loop a Spit V at that speed if not lower.

Quote

38 can only BnZ a spit if the 38 has a lot of E advantage. Those damn spits just need to dive 2 or 4k to get co-E with a 38..and we both know which planes loses its E quicker... the 38!. Climb away? You watching too many movies. That spit will level off, get close, pull up and hose you with 20mm. 38 cant outclimb 20mm.

The 38 will, in my experience, outaccelerate and outdive a Spit V. Once it extends far enough, it can go into a gradual climb at high speed and put both distance and altitude between itself and its opponent. If you're talking the Spit IX, that is another beast... faster and better accelerating than the Spit V, I can see where it can cause headaches for 38 drivers.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Widewing · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2002, 11:36:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
only a 109f4 has a chance in turnfighting vs a 38.

38 vs spit low and slow... depends on how slow it is. below 150 the spit has a high chance of not making it home or of losing the 38 if it decides to run away at that point. from 150 to 300 the 38 is dead.

below 150 you aint turnfighting, you're stallfighting. 38 is the master of stall fighting.

Tac, I killed a P-38 who wanted to stallfight down in the wavetops. He went into a tight lefthand Lufberry, with me slightly above. Around and around we went, and I slowly pinched the circle until I was in his 5 o'clock, not a wingspan distant. He finally wobbled and was forced to ease his turn. He was dead two seconds later. I was flying a Spit Mk.V. Our speed, right around 130-140. Had the P-38 pilot known how to pinch his turn, it would have been a lot tougher to gain position on him. You're right though, a well flown P-38 is a very tough customer as a stallfighter. The problem as I see it is that most people flying the P-38 do so at full throttle all the time. With its low power loading, it's always going so fast that turn radius is limited by G loading (blackout). To stallfight, ya gotta slow down, and that's something few of these guys are willing to do. This is why I prefer the Mk.V over the Mk.IX, it's higher power loading and slightly tighter turning radius (in my opinion) makes it a very dangerous opponent anytime the fight becomes turning contest. It had better be good at this, because it can't catch anything from behind..

It seems to me that the best way for a P-38 to survive a sky full of red tagged airplanes is to power back, reef it in tight, get those Fowlers out and wait for the knuckleheads to take the bait.
Sure as hell, some La-7 or Mustang jockey is going to make more than one turn, and find himself in deep bandini. Even Spitfires can trap themselves by trying to turn with you while carrying too much speed. Their turn radius will be quite large, the stallfighter cuts across and..... Whack.

My regards,

Widewing

Tac · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2002, 12:38:42 AM »

yup. I find the spitIX to be easier to kill on the stallfights..because the IX has a bigger engine.. more torque.. its accel is still CRAP compared to the 38's.

The V's... eeewww those I avoid getting into any turns. Luckily though, its not fast in any respect, and if you on the deck it doesnt have space to dive and catch you. 38 can very safely disengage from a V.

Widewing: I usually fly at half power when nose below horizon and full power when nose above.. coasting it like that while turning or doing lazy yoyo's or lazy 8's with a few snap turns to change direction (and not become predictable..them spits love to spray 20mm around).

Its a last resort to get down low, but heck, its fun, and in most cases, if the pilot is avg or too confident of his turning spit, it works.