Author Topic: PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!  (Read 4252 times)

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2002, 11:07:54 AM »
There's a lot of factors that go into how synchronization affects rate of fire.  Just changing your engine RPM affects rof, but trying to create a real model of interruptor gear goes well beyond the point of diminishing returns.  In AH, all synchronized guns are treated the same with a fire rate set to 90% of the weapon's unsynchronized rof.  In AH, the unsynched 12.7mm Breda has a rof of 650 rpm.  650 * .9 = 585 which is the rate of fire for the synched installation you see in the Macchi's.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2002, 12:43:06 PM »
I wonder if this post will break 100?  hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2002, 01:15:08 PM »
HoHun,
IIRC Galland rated armament of the  Bf 109E better than Bf 109F? One of the main reasons why Galland wanted to get more Fw 190s was much better armament and therefore much better possibilities to get hits (thats why he said shotgun). IMHO very few pilots were precision shooters like Mölders or Udet so generally more guns in the what ever position (wing or fuselage) was better for an average pilot.

gripen

Offline LUPO

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 346
      • http://www.stefanodeluca.it
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2002, 01:18:01 PM »
Well, Pyro, first of all thanks a lot for the quick and precise answer! I know this isn't a big issue so your answer is also a proof of the attention that HTC is tributing to his customers. Thanks again: now I'm starting to understand how the whole thing works... :)
I have to say that the data I found are slightly different from the AH data for the two Breda MGs (if, as Hooligan states, 7,7 rof in AH is 800).  According to Mr. Lomazzi usynched 12,7 had a rof of 700rpm, and 7,7 of 900rpm.
Gustin's site report the same data, as follows:

Name  Breda-SAFAT  
Ammunition 12.7 x 81SR (36.7 g)
Rate of Fire 700 rpm  
Muzzle velocity 760 m/s  
Weight  29 kg  
-----------------------------
Name  Breda-SAFAT  
Ammunition  7.7 x 56R (11.3 g)
Rate of Fire 900 rpm  
Muzzle velocity 730 m/s  
Weight  12.5 kg  


I repeat, I know isn't a big issue, but please consider the possibilty to fix it.  I'll be glad to send any info, if needed.
With regard,

Offline LUPO

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 346
      • http://www.stefanodeluca.it
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2002, 01:19:15 PM »
Quote
Hooligan wrote:
I don't have access to much information about the c.202, so I can't tell for sure but those 7.7mm guns look pretty far inboard to me. Perhaps they are just past the spinner. However the ROF in AH is 800. This seems rather low for a non-synchronized gun (Gustin states a ROF of 900 for these).

You're right, Hooligan: the guns ARE just past the spinner.

Offline Hooligan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2002, 04:42:18 PM »
Pyro:

Thanks a lot for clearing some of this up.

Hooligan

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2002, 07:29:59 PM »
Hi Gripen,

>IIRC Galland rated armament of the  Bf 109E better than Bf 109F?

I've never read he actually stated this. What is clear is that he did everything in his power to increase fighter armament. He did never replace the engine cannon, but just added more firepower.

>One of the main reasons why Galland wanted to get more Fw 190s was much better armament and therefore much better possibilities to get hits (thats why he said shotgun).

The Fw 190 had two inherently accurate centreline cannon opposed to the single one of the Me 109. I think Galland's preference for the Fw 190 was due to their overall suitability as bomber destroyers, not merely due to their greater firepower.

>IMHO very few pilots were precision shooters like Mölders or Udet so generally more guns in the what ever position (wing or fuselage) was better for an average pilot.

The pilot had to spend much more effort to getting the burst in at precisely the right range with wing guns than with centreline guns. It was much easier with centreline weapons:

"I had previously flown the twin-engined P-38 Lightning where the nose-mounted armament made for an ideal gun platform. Ranging wasn't the problem it was with the P-51 and other fighters which had wing-mounted armament where the fire converged."

(Major Robert Riemensnider, USAAF, quoted from Roger Freeman's "Mustang")

I think with Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF all in agreement, the case should be pretty clear :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Ooops...
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2002, 02:08:29 AM »
...sorry, I meant the "synchronisation" post to be attached to this thread, but I hit the wrong button :rolleyes:

As one theme in this this thread is to do with optimum fighter armament, you might be interested in the long debate which took place here:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=autogun&msg=97.1

The first post expresses my views on the subject.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://website.lineone.net/~a_g_williams/index.htm
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages

Offline LUPO

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 346
      • http://www.stefanodeluca.it
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2002, 03:50:39 AM »
VERY interesting, Tony.
Thanks. Learning a lot :)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2002, 04:49:09 AM »
HoHun,
AFAIK Galland keeped his Bf 109E long time because he rated it's armament better and he also got a special Bf 109F with wing cannons.

And I have not disagreed that centerline position for guns was best, certainly a Spitfire with all armament (2x20mm + 4x7,7mm) in the centerline would have been better than a Spitfire with wing armament (and not only because concentrated firepower but also for less inertia).  But the comparison was between the Spitfire vs Bf 109F (or G) or  the Bf 109E vs Bf 109F. And I believe that in the both cases an average pilot could get more hits with a plane with wing armament because most bullets miss anyway and therefore combination with better firepower is better.

I believe that only best shooters could really benefit from the centerline armament for others it was pretty much same if same firepower was available. Nowadays most quoted pilot's comments are from ace pilots  (best shooters in other words) therefore  it is a bit missleading to use their opinions for general conclusions. Galland's comment about flying targets and shotgun tells a lot  about normal situation during WWII.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2002, 07:43:09 AM »
Hi Gripen,

>AFAIK Galland keeped his Bf 109E long time because he rated it's armament better and he also got a special Bf 109F with wing cannons.

I've not read anything about Galland retaining a Me 109E. His special Me 109F variants included the Me 109F-2/U with the cowl machine guns upgraded to 13 mm calibre, though it would have been considerably easier to mount them in the wings (like the MG FF/M of his Me 109F-6/U). The F-6/U as the wing cannon aircraft you're referring to did not replace the engine cannon, but merely augmented it with more cannon that had to be mounted in the wings as they were unsuitable for synchronization (and wouldn't have fit into the cowling anyway).

Galland's quest for firepower included the addition of wing guns, but all his aircraft kept the accurate centreline guns. He certainly was aware of their advantages.

>But the comparison was between the Spitfire vs Bf 109F (or G) or the Bf 109E vs Bf 109F. And I believe that in the both cases an average pilot could get more hits with a plane with wing armament because most bullets miss anyway and therefore combination with better firepower is better.

You're talking about a quantitative difference, but in fact there was a qualitative difference between centreline armament and wing guns: While the former's cone of fire coincided with the sight line at any range, the latters' did so only at convergence range. This is the problem Major Riemensnider mentioned - wing guns don't just give you more firepower, but they introduce a new aiming problem.

If you look at the harmonization procedures, it becomes clear that the goal was, even with wing guns, was to keep the resulting pattern as small as possible. The desired result was dense fire, not a "shotgun effect". A "shotgun effect" could, after all, have been produced by suitable mis-alignment of a centreline weapons set, too - but instead, the weapons were set to fire parallel or to converge at very long range.

In short, the "shotgun" comparison is misleading. Galland's exmple of the "shotgun" (20 mm MG FF/M) may have illustrated his line of thinking when he compared it with a hunting rifle of greater accuracy, but smaller calibre (15 mm MG 151). However, he was advocating higher firepower, not simply a large and poorly centered pattern as you'd get from wing guns.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
harmonisation
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2002, 08:01:35 AM »
As I have mentioned I was in the PRO last week, and one of the files was a very comprehensive debate on the harmonisation issue. No space to go into all of it here, but it seems that in 1942, two years after deciding to harmonise RAF day fighter guns at 250 yards (night fighters at 150) a decision was taken to spread rather than concentrate fire, with the guns set to deliver a cone of just under one degree.

The reason was that deflection shooting was so poor that most pilots could hit nothing beyond a 5 degree cone behind the target.  In fact, results of deflection shooting against the little 109 were so poor that most pilots didn't even bother to try. It was reasoned that with a wider spread of fire, pilots would stand a better chance of scoring hits in deflection. The lack of results at long range was put down to poor aiming rather than lack of concentration of fire.

Of course, British fighters then had a heavier gun armament than the German ones so could afford to spread the fire around a bit without losing effectiveness.

The plot thickens...

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://website.lineone.net/~a_g_williams/index.htm
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2002, 08:13:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SageFIN
I'd probably venture to guess that it is because dispersion is calculated by gun, not by mount & gun.


It should be easy to test, 109G10 1x20 and then 109G10 3x20.

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
PLS HT look into Breda MG modelling!
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2002, 08:16:56 AM »
HoHun,
IIRC Galland claimed that he keeped Bf 109E long time in his memories (or someone else famous german pilot).

And you don't need to prove advantages of the centerline weapons because  I fully agree (how many times I should state this...). But this discussion started from a claimed claimed opinion by unnamed pilots who thought that 1x20mm + 2x7,9mm in the centerline was better than 2x20mm + 4,7,7mm in the wings. And  I believe that for large majority of the pilots later combimation was better simply because better firepower, therefore shotgun example is also very valid.

gripen

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: harmonisation
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2002, 04:25:54 PM »
Hi Tony,

>No space to go into all of it here, [...]

Will we see it on your site then? :-)

>but it seems that in 1942, two years after deciding to harmonise RAF day fighter guns at 250 yards (night fighters at 150) a decision was taken to spread rather than concentrate fire, with the guns set to deliver a cone of just under one degree.

I've to admit that I'm surprised to hear that: With a cone of fire of one degree, the pattern at the 250 yards distance would have a 4 m diameter. Assuming the normal dispersion was 0.5 degrees, the bullet density - and accordingly, the lethality - would be just 25% of what it was before. Even comparing it to the Me 109F with half the number of guns, it would only be 50%.

To me, this order sounds like it was born out of desperation. Do you have any information on how long that order remained standard procedure?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)