Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?

[Vermillion]

Ok, so label me a luftwhiner, and hand me a studded leather nightie, but this is been bothering me for most of this tour.

**Warning: The following is a rant. And as such, it is based solely upon arena experience and observations. No actual testing or data has been collected**

It was one thing to turn the P-38 into a friggin tank, but what the hell did Pyro do to the F6F-5 Hellcat in 1.08?

All of a sudden its the new Niki.  The thing goes into the vertical and can loop practically forever, not to mention it will turn with just about anything other than a zeke. And before you start to flame me, remember what the F6F-5 is, Big & Fat.

Ever stood next to one in Person?

And its obvious that the arena population has figured it out too.  Take a look at Deja's stat compilation page, you'll notice that F6F-5 usage has literally tripled this version (Tours 21,22,23 and 24).

Tour12 8680 10581
Tour13 2655 3700
Tour14 1250 2293
Tour15 2750 4399
Tour16 1326 2029
Tour17 3805 5253
Tour18 3373 4095
Tour19 3796 4182
Tour20 2756 3431
Tour21 6119 6456
Tour22 9638 11099
Tour23 10512 12175
Tour24 10428 12405

Yes, I know it had a reputation to be a decent turning aircraft. But lets be realistic.  It was a decent turning plane compared to other US planes. Notice the emphasis, on "compared too".

Now if I could just remember how Wells taught me to do the E retention test he developed I would go get some real data, and stop squeaking and moaning like Mandoble joking

Seriously, is it just me, or this plane performing outside of its historic envelope?

[Soulyss]

Having flown the F6F before and after the changes were made  I can say that I have not noticed any difference other than what was stated, that the stall was made much more docile.  

Since that was "fixed" ( I use quotes because I don't know whether the change reflects a realistic stall behavior or not) I think that could have other effects on how it is used in the MA.  I  THINK a lot of people stayed away from the Hellcat because they could not get over the violent stall and spin.  Since that was removed people are more willing to give it a try and the people who do use it will turn and burn a lot more without fear of it snapping out on them.  The fact that the plane is easier to fight in now could also lead to higher % of use since people seem to flock to the planes they think they can kill things with the easiest.

Yes it was a monster of an aircraft but it had equally monsterous wings, I believe (have to check my sources here) that it had the largest wing surface of any U.S. fighter which in layman's terms MAY (I'm not an engineer) lead to it's good turn performance despite it's overall large size and weight.  

*edit*  Not to denounce your claim,  who is to say that I'm right and you're wrong just my own observations from spending a lot of time in the cockpit of the F6F.   Before and after the changes were introduced.

[eddiek]

I'll have to find the link, but I do believe I recall reading how when the RAF tested the F6F, it gave the SpitV pilot fits in turns down to 160mph.
I'll have to look for it again, but I know I saw read that once....

[Vermillion]

No Soulyss thats what I want is opinons on it.  

Maybe thats whats going on now, its just so stable near stall speed that it makes it a very good loop fighter. Which I find difficult to believe.  I've just never heard of the Hellcat being a pure vertical E fighter in history.

Started diggin thru my books.

Yes it had big wings.  Gross weight was 12,500 lbs with 334 sq ft. of wings.  for a wing loading of 37.42 lbs/sqft.  For comparison the P-51D was 9500 lbs with 233.19 sq ft, for a wingloading of 40.74 lbs /sqft.  But the big thing was its wings were more efficent with a Clmax of 2.27, compared to the Clmax of 1.89 of the P-51.  (Data from AHT)

According to AHT, the F6F-5 should have a 3G turn radius about 77% of the P-51D. (p. 603). I'll test that and see what I can come up with.

[ra]

Those stats don't mean much as all planes are used now more than in previous tours because of increased player volume.  Kill % each tour would mean something.

There's nothing at all uber about the F6F, just a good all around plane.

The latest issue of Flight Journal has an article by Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer about the F6F.  He describes it as having very easy flying characteristics.  You could stall it inverted and it would just roll over and recover.

ra

[Pollock]

I think we need to hear what Mathman has to say on this subject he is probably the best stick regarding the hell kitty

[bozon]

the f6f was known to be a very pleasant plane to fly.
It stalled at pretty low speeds and very gently, a perfect feature for a CV aircraft.

the reason for the low usage before 1.08 was the nasty stall, that prevented proper TnB in this plane. It's a nice E fighter also, but too slow to survive in the MA without the ability to turnfight p51 / La7 / dora and actually most of the plane set including spit IX (at alt)...

I did a vertical zoom test in ver 1.07. the result for the f6f wasn't spectacular at all. when 1.08 came out, I checked to see if anything changed - found no difference for the f6f within the margin of error. the f4u-d improved a little.

It will never be the new nik. It's a pleasent plane to fly but blows E in a turn, acceleration is so-so, climb rate is below avrage and max level speed is matched with N1k and spitIX (alt dependent). still "only" 6*0.5 guns.

Bozon

[Dead Man Flying]

To succinctly answer your question, Verm:

No, the F6F is not the new N1K.

Next!

-- Todd/Leviathn

[AKEagle+]

F6Fs are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

I had about a 1.1:1 over all K/D in tour 24.  So I classify as a newbie yet!

The following are kills of and killed by:

Against the F6F I was 19/12.

My favorite food seems to be Spit 9s  31/9

And they wanna perk it

Against the NIK2 I am  16/20    

But when I fly the NIK2 I am 50/41.

When flying the F6F I am 2/5.

At least for a newbie like me, the F6F ain't no NIK2.

The F6F has an overall K/D of 14977/17036 in tour 24

The NIK2 had an overall K/D of 30870/25901 in tour 24

Conclustion after interpeting the above stats????

Either  A: PERK the F6FU  (because it is Blue!)

Or       B:  AKEagle+ can't fly of course!!! ROTFL!!

So what if I suck at this?  I am having a blast!

AKEagle+

[214thCavalier]

Lol sorry but no way can you compare it to the Nik.
F6F-5 is a great plane with E, without E then its a fun plane to work your bellybutton off and surprise the unwary.
But i will disagree with Bozon in as much as it has nothing to fear from P51's or LA7's  1v1 they are just meat on the table unless they run away of course
It is totally survivable in the MA, its all down to the mindset of the pilot and knowing when to bug out from a fight before its too late, yup that SA phrase.
Yea i know it may come as a surprise to some of you but you dont have to fight till the bitter end especially if you can see it coming.
Then again sometimes it can be fun
The FM did not have any changes other than the flaps and by all accounts they were surely porked before.
If the F6F-5 has a bit of room to dive it can regain E so fast that many suckers will find out to late that if its BLOO, squat and ugly ya best keep clear.
And the plane that troubles me the most in a 1v1 is the P38 with a good pilot.

[Steven]

I'm seriously flabbergasted at this person suggesting the F6F is some uber aircraft!  I was shocked and near laughed out loud while I read this person's complaints.  The F6F is one of my three main mounts and it is really a difficult time in the arena in one.  Due to its speed, you have to always be wary of the other buzzards bouncing you.  Instead of whining about what it did to you, hop in one and see how well you do in this "super UFO."  Yeah, it has a big wing and can turn well, but you do not want to bleed all your E because you do not recapture it all that well (like most other USA iron.)  It's one of those E-fighters against planes slower than it and a Turn & Burn aircraft against those faster than it.  Does neither that great but does fit in the middle just enough so that you can outfox someone not real familiar with her fighting characteristics.  It has a good initial dive rate so I suppose if flown well can out fight someone in a looping engagement who doesn't understand the kitty.  But there is no way the kitty has the E-retention and acceleration of the N1K and many other aircraft.  

[Vermillion]

Oh really Steven, is it quite so funny?

Ever heard the names Hooligan and Drex ?  Because they're the ones who told me at breakfast one day at the CON (remember the new version had just came out).... "*pssst* you tried the Hellkitty out yet? Its the new Niki".

Ahhhh... but they're just dweebs, and there was the alcoholic haze too deal with.

Of course I'm admittedly just a dweeb myself.

We don't know anything compared to you pro's thats been here almost a full year  

LOL!

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Vermillion
Ever heard the names Hooligan and Drex ?  Because they're the ones who told me at breakfast one day at the CON (remember the new version had just came out).... "*pssst* you tried the Hellkitty out yet? Its the new Niki".

They were both incorrect, as time has borne out.  The F6F is a very capable arena plane, but it lacks many of the elements that made the original N1K such a killer.  It doesn't turn as well, doesn't hold E as well (pre-fixing), doesn't accelerate as well (though it dives beautifully), doesn't feature four 20mm cannons, etc etc.  In any event, it certainly will not survive a sustained turnfight with a Spitfire... not a Spit V anyway.

I don't typically consider the F6F a priority threat when I fly in the MA regardless of who's flying it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Zigrat]

vermillion

if you want a simple e-retention test here it is:

take your favorite aircraft. pick an altitude (imo 3000 ft is convenient) and record top speed at this altitude.

then go to sea level (make sure you are doing this offline and fuel burn is zero)

reduce speed in 10 mph incriments by lowering throttle (so you are level at/near sea level).

then type .speed ### where ### is the speed increment (your previous trial - 10 MPH)

then add full power. record climb rate as you pass through your altitude datum (ie the 3000 ft or whatever number you picked)

post this data and from this you can determine if the plane has mythical qualities or not.

[Steven]

Vermillion,

I can see that my post upset you.  It wasn't anything against you.  You might want to be careful who you listen to I guess.  I do fly the Hellkittie often...or used to prior to the 3 weeks I took off in January (now I'm on to the F4U-1.)  I do okay in the Kittie but you really have to choose your battles very carefully.  Understand, from someone who concentrated on the kittie for a while and who realizes it's a very tough bird to survive in if flown like 75% of the other fighters in the MA, a comparison to the N1K is a very funny thing.  Honestly, fly her in the MA for a week and tell us your conclusions after that.  Seriously.  Don't let other people's word and 1 battle formulate your conclusion.  That's funny in itself too...1 lost battle and it's a UFO.

Loosen up, I count myself at best an average fighter online and I'm sure you can best me 1v1 any time.  I am certainly no dogfighter....I'm a hunter and am very careful what I get my pink little body into.  I will have been here 1 yr this May.  I would've guessed w/ your high number of postings you've been here quite some time.