Author Topic: Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?  (Read 1492 times)

Offline Montezuma

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2002, 03:44:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion

Maybe thats whats going on now, its just so stable near stall speed that it makes it a very good loop fighter. Which I find difficult to believe.  I've just never heard of the Hellcat being a pure vertical E fighter in history.
 



"The Hellcat was a very forgiving aircraft.  In a slow-speed stall, the nose would just drop; it did not snap into a spin, as some aircraft would do."

Commander Frank Fleming, USN
7.5 air to air victories in Hellcats
VF-16, USS Lexington

Offline FLS

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2002, 05:25:07 AM »
If there's a fighter in AH that can't loop until it runs out of gas I haven't flown it. My first full tour was this last one so I haven't tried all of them yet but even the C-47 does continuous loops.

The F6F-5 was designed to fight Zekes. It should be no surprise that it's very capable against everything else. The tubby looks might fool some people but it's a great airplane with an outstanding combat record.

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« Last Edit: February 09, 2002, 11:57:33 AM by FLS »

Offline Wilbus

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2002, 06:07:36 AM »
Only problem I have with it is that it constantly eats 2 or more 30mm hits before actually going down. Or a huge number of 20mm's. Takes more punishment then a frigging B17.
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Offline MANDOBLE

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2002, 06:54:10 AM »
Using mainly 190 to fight them, F6Fs, N1KJs and Spits are all in the same bag for me. The main difference between the F6F and the rest from the view point of a 190 piltot, is that the F6F will ping u to death up to 1100 yards, same effect with spit up to 700 yards and same with nikki up to 600 yards.
Ordering them by noticed E retention in my fights:

1 - Spit (any model)
2 - N1KJ2
3 - F6F
4 ... - The rest with the exception of Yak9U, Ki61 and La7 (all of them in 0 pos).

A tip: Dont try to dive with a Hellcat at ur six ...

Offline bozon

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2002, 08:25:46 AM »
cavalier wrote:
Quote
But i will disagree with Bozon in as much as it has nothing to fear from P51's or LA7's 1v1 they are just meat on the table unless they run away of course

sorry bro, you missunderstood me.
that was before the stall fix. trying to pure E fight p-51 and La7 was very hard. now that you can push the plane in turns, I find the p-51 to be a low threat in the f6f.
now IT IS a good plane in the MA. last tour was the first I flew a lot of the f6f. had 48 kills and 27 deaths in it, and I'm not very good.

it's a good plane, but nothing uber
Bozon
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Offline Vermillion

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2002, 08:44:15 AM »
My point isn't that it beats everything in the arena. My point is that it (in my opinon) performances too well relatively to what it should.

A perfect example of the same thing, was when I and several others started asking questions about the P-47-11, in its first version out.  Was it Uber? No.  But it DID do things that made you go "WoW...  thats something I didn't expect to see out of a P-47 !!"

If you asked the P-47 Devotee's, it was the best thing since sliced bread, and exactly everything that the "dogfighting" P-47 should be.  Was it correct? Evidently not since there was a slight weight discrepancy, and it got changed.  Ask them how much that 300 lbs meant to the performance of their ride.

Soulyss (who imo made the most honest qualitative look at the issue so far, rather than try to defend "their ride") may have hit the nail on the head when he says it might just be that the stall has been turned down to such levels that it keeps the plane very stable in the vertical, allowing it to milk much more E out of loops, where other planes wallow and stall.

I could be wrong about this whole thing, easily.  But consider that in the past, whenever I've made a "something seems strange about this plane" post (and there's been many), I can only think of one time that I was wrong, and a subsequent change wasn't made to the FM.

Offline Drex

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2002, 09:40:13 AM »
I must have been really drunk.  Don't remember saying the f6f is the next niki.  I am the last person to listen to when it comes to aircraft performance, and the validity of the FM.  I just fly em'.


Drex

Offline Shuckins

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Hellcat performance
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2002, 11:19:16 AM »
This is my first post/reply, guys, so be kind!

An adequate response to some of the statements in these posts
about the Hellcat's "low performance" would require a 10,000
word dissertation!   Many of the opinions about the F6F are based
on erroneous data or assumptions.  Unfortunately, when an air-
craft gains a certain "reputation" early in its developmental period
it never shakes it

The Corsair and the Hellcat were built to meet the performance of
the same Navy contract.  They had roughly the same gross weights, wingspan, Pratt & Whitney engine, propeller, and com-
bat range.  The Navy desperately wanted the Corsair to be its
main carrier fighter, but the design possessed deadly handling
characteristics that caused it to be pulled from carrier operations
3 times during WW II.  The Hellcat's low-speed handling and stall
characteristics, as well as its' excellent forward visibility when
landing, made it a much more forgiving aircraft for the young, in-
experienced Navy pilots coming out of flight school during the war.
Had the Navy not had the Hellcat design to fall back on it would
have been in serious trouble.

Nevertheless, Grumman was under considerable pressure by the
Navy to improve the Hellcat's roll rate and speed.  In an article
in FLIGHT JOURNAL magazine, (Dec. 1998 issue), Corky Meyer
relates Grumman's attempts meet these requirements.  They were given an F4U-1D to study and orders to improve the F6F's
top speed by 20 knots and improve the roll rate.  Everyone who
flew both aircraft "knew" the Corsair was 20 knots faster.  But
when flight testing began, Corky found that, when the two were
flown side by side with similar power settings, their level flight
speeds were identical.  However, the Corsair's ASI consistently
read 20 knots faster, even when the two aircraft were in closely
stabilised flight.

It turned out that the Hellcat's AIS system's static and dynamic
orifices gave a different reading because they were mounted on
a single boom, whereas the Corsair's static orifice was on the
fuselage.  Grumman engineers copied the Corsair's AIS location
and then got a similar reading.

The Corsair was 20 knots faster than the Hellcat below 5,000 feet
because of the way it's supercharger got ram air for its main-stage blower.  But from 5,000 feet to their respective service
ceilings the two aircraft had almost exactly the same speed.

The Hellcat's low roll rate proved much harder to solve.  The Cor-
sair's exceptionally low lateral stability, the very thing that made
it so tricky to land aboard a carrier, gave it's ailerons great power
and contributed to a fabulous roll rate.  The Hellcat lateral stability, by contrast, was exceptionally high, making it a delight
to land aboard a carrier, but giving a low roll rate.

A complete redesign of the Hellcat's wing was out of the question
during wartime.  Grumman eventually solved the problem by in-
corporating NACA spring tab ailerons to lower the stick forces.
The tabs closed the rolling performance gap, allowing the pilot
to get full aileron deflections at speeds of more than 100 knots
faster than had been previously possible.

These changes were incorporated into the F6F-5 production line.
The -5 was more than 10 mph faster than the -3.  The -5's top
speed at 21,600 feet was 409 mph.  

Despite these "fixes," the Hellcat never overcame it's "low perfor-
mance" reputation.  Many sources routinely repeat the "pre-fix"
performance statistics, giving the F6F-5's top speed as 386 mph.
A 20 knot differential translates into 23 mph.   Add that to the
erroneous figure and you get 409.

Unfortunately for flight sim fans, the lower figure appears to be
the one routinely used to program the flight model for the F6F-5.

And THAT is a shame!


Respectfully,  Shuckins

Offline Steven

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2002, 11:35:37 AM »
Seriously, do not make any more comments until you've flown the F6F some.

It almost sounds like some people are saying the F6F doesn't stall.  It does!  If you aren't watching it she'll dip a wing on you in a turn and if you do not correct quickly you will roll and possibly spin her.  Since I have experience in flying her, that is one thing I look for when I fight against her.  And if you are watching, you'll see it...your opponent in an F6F and see the plane make a slight wing dip and wobble and then you know you have her.  All her E is gone and she's one big heavy hunk of iron in the sky.  

Fly the Kittie, her E isn't all that great.  I don't fear the LW planes because when the 190s or 109s dive down on my six, I just make a slight turn one way or the other and you guys zoom off.  I've barely more than a gentle turn, just enough to throw off your aim and thus I've not lost much of my own E and I'm ready for a fight when and if you come down to try to chase my tail.  Once a LW plane tries to do that, I'll force you to make turns with me and then you've made a mistake.  I don't fear USA planes in her either nor do I fear the F6F when I'm in other USA planes.  I can't handle the Russian, Japanese or the Spits when flying her and I will think twice about engaging when I see one of them.

Again, fly her and then tell us your thoughts.  That's the best way to forumlate an educated opinion.

Offline Mathman

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2002, 01:02:22 PM »
I would like to chime in here.

While I don't think the F6F even comes close to approaching the myhtical qualities that the N1K had prior to 1.08, it is definitely a different plane than what it was before the correction.  This is, from my experience, due entirely to the stall fix that was introduced.  I am able to fly it closer to the stall than I did before.  I am no longer worried about the vicious snap that was there before, thus I am much more aggressive in my attacks and fighting vs. whatever plane I happen to come across.

The secret, that I think many people are figuring out, to being successful in the Hellcat is to keep the speed between 225-300.  At this speed, very few planes are able to stay with it.  Unlike Zekes (and maybe Spits, but I haven't flown them much in a long time), though, you can't yank the stick around.  This is how yopu blow all your speed and become a sitting target.  

There is one other factor that I think catches people.  It is its size.  Being such a big plane, it tends to hide its E state very well.  When it is going 300, it doesn't look like it is.  I have been told many times by some of the guys that I shot down that they had no idea that I had the E that I did.

The next thing that I think is a bit of a stretch is its performance in the vertical.  Unless I enter a climb at a very high speed, I can't get the F6F to do anything in the vertical worth mentioning.  At most, I may close a bit initially, but then I stall and get nailed like the prom queen after the dance.  But, with the stall what I would call being normal or correct now, I am able to hold my nose up a bit longer and get a shot or two into my opponent.

It has been my experience that the biggest drawbacks to the Hellcat are its speed, roll, acceleration and climb.  All three of those things are vital in what I would consider to be a perk plane.   The things the F6F does well (but not great, as there are planes that exceed it in many of these areas) are dive, turn and shoot planes down.

Oh well, just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth, and it probably doesn't make much sense.

-math

Offline Soulyss

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2002, 03:12:23 PM »
well math, you never make sense so we're used to it :D

good observations as usual though.  :)
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Offline 214thCavalier

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2002, 03:16:41 PM »
OK so now i begin to wonder if Verm was fishing or actually serious as i do not consider the following any basis for a serious post.

Tour 23
2 Kills of F6F-5
1 Death by F6F-5

Tour 24
2 Kills of F6F-5
2 Deaths by F6F-5

Tour 25 (current)
0 Kills of F6F-5
1 Death by F6F-5 with you in your LA7, to me as it happens last night, at which point you questioned the planes performance and suggested a lag jump, politely i will add and also mentioned you would query the performance on the BBS.
Now i am on a nearly empty 155mb ADSL pipe thats 1 week old and lag so far is unheard of which was confirmed by two totally flat netstat lines when i checked.

Anyway now you claim that after a total of 8 ! count em 8 encounters with an F6F-5 over the past 3 tours you feel capable of assessing the F6F-5's performance as ranking with a N1k ???

Lol come on :)

Maybe it was just that unknown pilot ability thing, if you check your LA7 stats you have not exactly been setting the world alight with it.

Please note this has been a RANT response and i freely acknowledge and support your right to RANT when pis... err umm annoyed :)


Offline Vermillion

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2002, 04:55:40 PM »
Drex, you weren't drunk, but I think you were highly hung over ;) I don't think it was the morning after you, Eagl, Pyro, and me went to that one bar until 4:00AM, because I was too hung over to eat that next morning (thank God I didn't drink them friggin Jaegermeister shots you and Eagl were downing), but I think it was the morning after that.  Hooligan was the one crowing about about the new Hellkitty (him and his thing about fat blue planes :D ) and I think your response was more a matter of a few generals nods and grumbles of agreement.

Steven, I have flown them, a few sorties in the MA, some in the CT and I spent about 3 hours last night doing tests with stop watches to see what it would do by the numbers. Did you know that on average it will turn a 360 degree turn about 3 full seconds ahead of a P-51 (but since you can't measure turn radius, I have nothing to compare against the published data I have)? Did you know that between 250mph and 300mph its actually accelerating slightly slower than what AHT reports it should (hard test to perform without a digital speedometer)?

Cavalear, congratulations on having DSL. Because now you've joined a large club that I've been a member of for quite some time (ie I have DSL too). My connect is around 50-60ms and rock solid (I also check with UOping to check packet loss, would you like me to post some of my charts?), and after our encounter I too had flat netstat lines. But do you honestly think that makes either one of us immune to lag or warps? If so your fooling yourself.  Especially with the server the way it has been lately.  LOL! The most funny thing you hear online is "I CAN'T WARP, I'm ON CABLE !!!!!" :)

Nope guys I don't have alot of F6F kills in the past 3 tours, but do you think thats all I have encountered (especially with it the 5th most common plane this past tour), considering my arena time during that same period ??? To be honest, I usually just leave em to the Spits and other turn fighters on my team (I almost always fly Energy fighters), because of the performance I'm describing.  Just like the Niki era, I would rather just leave them in my dust, hunt other planes, and not have to worry about wunder manuevers.

Ah well, I will make this my last post on this subject.  Admittedly I started it with a rant (and stated such from the start, but it was more of a satire rant which I thought was clear), but I was just trying to start some decent discussion on the subject.  I didn't think it would degrade to chest thumping, innuendo, and insults.

Offline Nath[BDP]

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2002, 05:55:07 PM »
Well, the F6F did spawn the most US aces.
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Offline MANDOBLE

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2002, 08:15:05 PM »
Cavalier, a lot of engangements end with no victims, specially near CVs, where the F6F can dive and hide (just a common example). Actually I have a small number of La7 kills and a small number of La7 deaths, but my number of engangements against La7 in the actual tour is scandalous (HT please delete that monster from hangar interface ;) ).

This plane (F6F) is also an excelent jabo (my second preferred after P47D30),  cause that, its K/D ratio is affected by a lot of deaths to the field acks.