Author Topic: Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?  (Read 1487 times)

Offline Doberman

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2002, 04:55:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
If I may inject a note of reality here, ....

 The Nik was designed with the specific purpose of besting the F6F.  


No reason to ever let truth get in the way of "reality" though, is there? ;)

Both the F6F and the plane that would become the NiK were begun in mid to late 1941.   At that time, the military's knowledge of their soon-to-be enemy's performance capability was relatively slim.  

The Nik was originally designed as a seaplane that never went into production.  After a redesign (basically replacing the floats with gear) some prototypes were produced, none of which really lived up to performance expectations.  After many changes & problems, it finally went into production as the Nik1 in 1943, shortly after F6F's started arriving in theater.    

The 1 & 2 versions of the NiK certainly turned out to be worthy opponents for the F6F, but they were not specifically designed to defeat it.

FWIW also the Corsair wasn't designed in response to the Zero, despite popular misinformed opinion.

D

Offline Shuckins

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2002, 05:33:26 PM »
Doberman,

I based my observation about the Nik on something Saburo Sakai said in his auto-biography "Samurai."  

"The Shiden, known by its code name of George to the enemy, was designed as an interceptor to outfight the Hellcat.  It lacked the Zero's range and was heavier, but it possessed great speed and was armed with four 20-mm cannon.  It offered pilots safety through armor plating and excellent structure.  I found it surprisingly maneuverable for its heavy weight..."

"Unfortunately, the Shiden's flight characteristics were treacherous and demanded an experienced pilot.  Too many men with little time behind the controls of fighter planes never lived to fly the Shiden into combat.  Their familiarization flights killed them."

Only guessing here, but i suppose Sakai meant that the designed had been modified to give it superiority over the Hellcat in certain flight regimes.


On another note, I wonder why 20mm cannon are not available on the Hellcat in Aces High, even as an option?  More Hellcats were built with 20mm's than were Corsairs or Niks.

Shuckins.

Offline Hooligan

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2002, 12:52:34 AM »
I know that some F6F5s were equipped with 2x20mm and 4x.50Cal.  The only photos I have seen of these were nightfighters but the sparse text I have read suggests that some dayfighters were also armed with this weapon set.

Shuckins, can you point to any documentary evidence about cannon armed dayfighter hellcats?

Hooligan

Offline Vector

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2002, 01:39:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Why is it easier to believe, for instance, that the P-47D, which had a Pratt and Whitney R2800 of 2300 hp, the same as the F6F-5, and which weighed nearly a ton more in unloaded condition, was capable of 430 mph at its rated altitude, and the Hellcat was only capable of 386 mph at its' rated altitude.  Elementary physics says that it is not possible.  In  bulk and weight, the F6F takes second place.  Either the flight data on the P-47 is in error, or that of the F6F is in error.
So, which is it?
Respectfully,  Shuckins


Hi Shuckins

Interesting topic. I like both P-47's and F6F's. F6F is like Spit IX dressed up like P-47 :)

I don't know on what reference your figures are beased but P-47 and F6F had different engines.
P-47D-30: R-2800-59 engine. 2600 HP (takeoff) at SL, 2600HP (combat) at 25000ft 64"HG man pressure.
F6F-5: R-2800-10W engine. 2250HP (combat) at SL, 1975HP (combat) at 20000ft 59.5"HG man pressure.

One more thing; F6F is big plane. It's wing span is bigger than P-47's and had much more wing area than the P-38.

Offline Shuckins

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2002, 10:11:10 AM »
Vector,

You are correct.  P-47's engine was rated for higher altitudes because of the nature of the war it was designed to fight.  High-altitude combat against the Luftwaffe.  Much of the Thunderbolt's bulk and weight is attributable to the complicated ductwork of its tubo-supercharging system.  

Addressing the matter of drag, insofar as wing area is concerned, wing thickness is the greatest drag-producing factor.  There was very little difference in wing thickness.  The Hellcat had a wing thickness factor of 16 percent.  That is, it's thickness was 16 percent of the width of the wing.  The Thunderbolt's wing thickness factor was 15 percent.  The Hellcat's wingspan was almost exactly 2 feet wider than the Thunderbolt's,  hardly enough to be a major factor in the production of drag.  The above information was published in an article by Corky Meyer in Flight Journal magazine, August 2001 edition.

By the way, that article is a great read.  It's the tale of Grumman's attempts to solve the Hellcat's compressibility problems.  The test dives were supposed to be limited to .75 mach, or a speed of 485mph (580mph true air-speed), with the dive starting at 28,000 feet.  Corky inadvertently entered the dive at a 75 degree angle instead of the 60 degree angle mandated by test parameters.  The resulting dive reached .77 mach, with a true airspeed of over 600mph!  With compressibility forcing the Hellcat into a dive angle near to the vertical, he passed through 9,000 feet at more than 700 feet per second.  His controls were immovable, as though set in concrete.  Corky saved his life by reducing throttle to idle, thus greatly increasing the drag of his aircraft.  The resultant 7.5 g pullout at 2500 feet bent both horizontal stabilizers at their midspan;  the right one up at a 15 degree angle, and the left one down at a 15 degree angle.  A complete inspection of the aircraft didn't show anything else bent or any rivets pulled!  Grumman redesigned the elevator structure to withstand the 7.5 g buffet boundary as a result of the elevator failure.  Grumman wasn't called "The Iron Works" for nothing.

But I digress!

The Thunderbolt was definitely faster than the Hellcat because of its complicated and powerful turbosupercharger.  Nevertheless, at it's rated altitude of 21,600 feet, the Hellcat was perfectly capable of 400 mph in level flight.  Of the two sources have quoted to substantiate that fact, one came from one of Grumman's main test pilots for the Hellcat, and the other was the result of tests run by Allied Technical Air Intelligence.  Both sources agree that the -5 Hellcat's top speed exceeded 400mph at it's rated altitude.

Shuckins

Offline Shuckins

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2002, 10:34:15 AM »
Hooligan,

Sorry, I don't have the exact figures at my fingertips.  During 1945 Grumman switched over at least part of its production run from standard armament of 6 fifty-caliber machine guns to the new armament of two 20mms and four fifty-calibers.  Grumman's production curve averaged about 600 aircraft per month during 1945.  Even at the relatively low figure of 20 percent of the production run,  Grumman had to have turned out at least 480 of these aircraft by the time the Japanese surrendered in August.
The 20 percent figure is purely conjectural, but certainly not unreasonable.

By contrast, only 200 of the cannon-armed F4U-1C were produced by Vought, and only 400 of the N1K2 "George" were produced by the Japanese.  Both of these aircraft are modeled in Aces High.  Therefore, to return to my originaly question, "Why not the Hellcat?"  As a perc-plane perhaps?  

Shuckins

Offline Vector

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2002, 12:00:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
With compressibility forcing the Hellcat into a dive angle near to the vertical, he passed through 9,000 feet at more than 700 feet per second.  His controls were immovable, as though set in concrete.  Corky saved his life by reducing throttle to idle, thus greatly increasing the drag of his aircraft.  Shuckins


S!
Very interesting reading Shuckins, thx!

I recall reading somewhere that P-47 (w/o dive flaps) pilots were told that they could get out of bad compression with firing their guns! Throttle down with elevator trim up and with guns recoil they could get out of it in case of emergency.

What comes to F6F-5 top speeds, manufacturer's and navy's reports differs 10-30 mph. Manufacturer reports 400mph@20000ft whereas navy reports 380mph@23000ft. Manufacturer's reports were considered too optimistic. After checking Jane's Fighters of the WWII, it states F6F-3's top speed of 376mph. Dunno.

Offline Hooligan

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2002, 12:03:47 PM »
Quote

"Why not the Hellcat?" As a perc-plane perhaps?


Because nobody has offered any proof.

Believe me I would love to have a 20mm armed hellcat as a perk plane.  But if HTC is going to do this then somebody needs to show them some proof that mixed battery hellcats were used as dayfighters.  Which squadrons did they fly in and where?  What are the sources for this information so they can check it for themselves?  If they were to add one they need a paint scheme for the one that would be in AH (i.e. they need some pictures of 20mm armed hellcats that are not nightfighters).

I don't have any data to show that 20mm armed hellcats were used as dayfighters and the details on where and when.  Do you have this information?  If so please tell us the sources.

Hooligan

Offline Vector

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2002, 12:40:54 PM »
Hooligan is right, no proof = nothing.
I am on same kind of situation in my crusade of baddle plade prop for P-47D-11. Evidence so far: America's 100.000 states that paddle blade kit were retrofitted to older jugs "group by group". Not enough, got to search more, and you too Shuckins, good luck! :)

Offline Charon

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Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2002, 12:43:25 PM »
I have seen some war art showing a nightfighter F6F shooting down an N1K2 in daytime, but, of course, it had the radar dome on the leading edge. Model the plane with the drag and weight of the radar system and you probably wouldn't need any perk points.

Charon