Author Topic: Gunsights - How to read them ?  (Read 2413 times)

Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« on: February 12, 2002, 03:35:36 PM »
As a new flyer in AH, I have found the default gunsight to be of little value (probably because this is all new to me and I probably don't understand how to read this gunsight). This is, I think, a shortcoming of the HTC documentation/help.

I have seen many different gunsights listed not only on the HTC site but other valuable flyer/squad sites too. Even though these gunsights appear to contain many indicators that mean something to the experienced flyer, I am somewhat lost. What I would like to see is if the author of the gunsight could explain what they use the different markings on the sight for ... such as gun distance markers, rocket markers, POM markers, and bomb markers,  and at what distance the mark indicates. I found a site that has quite a collection of gunsights, but they are used for WB and are not in the .bmp format. Again a lot of the gunsights were nice, but lacked explanations, and probably offered a lot of information to the more experienced without explanation.

If anybody has any good gunsights that they think work for the planes that they fly in AH, and could explain what the gunsight accomplishes, I would love to see them. Rather than clog this forum with any donations, you could email slpshot@snet.net them to me, and I will see if I can get them loaded to an FTP site for all AH players to use.

Thanks ...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2002, 12:56:56 PM by SlpShot »

Offline FLS

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2002, 07:14:59 PM »
Here's link for an RAF training manual that explains how to use gunsights. You'll find other useful articles on gunnery and air combat there too.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/RAFgun/

Basically you use the ring and gap between the horizontal bars on the ring along with the wingspan of your target for range estimation. This is useful when your convergence matches the range at which the wingspan of your target fills the ring or gap between the bars in the ring.

The inner ends of the horizontal bars and intersections of the bars with the ring will also show you the impact points of converging guns at certain ranges in front of and behind the range convergence is set for. You can find those distances for various aircraft by patterning your guns with the .target command offline.

--)-FLS-----
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« Last Edit: February 12, 2002, 07:26:56 PM by FLS »

Offline Kweassa

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2002, 07:21:29 PM »
In the case of 1C's IL-2, the gunsight helps a lot, since the
 game uses more sophisticated gunnery modelling. You can
 hit enemy planes only with exact aiming and therefore, gun
 sights come in really handy.

 It is a bit more leninent in Aces High so some people actually
 just prefer a 'dot' as a gunsight. Just get the 'feel' going on
 and you barely need a gunsight.

 ...but since you asked, this is the way I found out how the
 gunsights are used.

 The first step in exact aiming is to use the horizontal lines of
 the gun sight. Place the horizontal line of the cross on the
 target plane's wings. Always keep the horizontal
 line in parallel with the target's wings. You use the ailerons
 to do this.

 Then after this parallel is set, use the vertical line. Place the
 vertical line on the target plane's Vertical stabilizer/rudder
 part. In this aiming part you use the rudder.

 Then, decide how much lead you need in taking the shot.
 Vector your aiming point to the point of lead using the gun sight.
 While vectoring the aiming point(where your bullets fly to) to the
 lead point, keep the vertical lines parallel with the vertical stabilizer,
 and keep the horizontal lines parallel with the wings.
 
 Take your shot.

 .

 the people with great gunnery somehow just figure out this by head,
 and don't use the gunsights to properly aim and keep things straight.
 They just instantly point to the lead point in any sort of angle and pull
 trigger. Quite amazing feat ain't it :)

Offline Andy Bush

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Gunsight Markings
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2002, 08:08:16 PM »
Slpshot

The reason why you have found so little info on what the sight markings mean is because so few people know anything about the subject.

Add to that the fact that few sim developers tell the buyer what the gunsight "means".

The simple fact is that the sight markings are there for specific reasons, as that RAF article points out.

A2A or A2G, the markings on the sight are designed to provide specific info to the pilot. In A2A, the markings on a fixed sight (non-LCOSS) provide range and lead angle info.

A2G, the markings provide aim off and ballistic info. I do not know of any sim that provides a fixed sight that is properly designed for any type of weapons delivery outside of short range strafe.

There are other articles at SimHQ's Air Combat Corner that deal with gunsights.

Andy

Offline elstevie

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2002, 11:07:51 PM »
I use this one for ALL shots.

Offline Andy Bush

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2002, 08:50:01 AM »
Slpshot

Maybe this will help.

Each gunsight display has a center point, sometimes called the "pipper". This center point has different meaning, depending on whether the sight is being used for forward firing projectiles (bullets and rockets) or free-falling ordnance (unguided bombs).

In the first case, the center point is meant to indicate projectile impact point. The assumption is that the aircraft is wings level and at a particular speed and altitude. For WW2 planes, that point is also the convergence point for guns mounted off the aircraft centerline.

In the second case, the center point is used as a reference that indicates when the bomb fall line intersects the ground. This concept is far more complicated than the one above. For more detail, see the A2G series at SimHQ.

Back to A2A. The attacking pilot has to solve three variables: range, target plane of motion, and lead angle. If the center point is designed to indicate bullet position at some point in front of the attacker's plane, then all other markings are intended to help the pilot solve range, plane of motion, and lead estimation.

The gunsight designer begins by establishing the scale of the display. This means he sets the dimensions of the display to represent a given range to the target. The simplest reference is the gunsight reticle. The designer intends that the diameter of the reticle is sized such that an enemy aircraft wingspan will equal the reticle diameter at that given range. Other types of display markings (lines, X's, tick marks, etc) all do exactly the same thing. The pilot simply compares target size to his display to estimate range...he knows what range he wants, so he closes on the target until it is the desired size relative to the sight markings.

Next is target plane of motion. The attacker wants to get his gun line into the target plane of motion. Gunsight designers help the pilot estimate this by adding angular lines (radii) that intersect the pipper. The idea is that the pilot lines up one of these lines with the target's flight path...by maintaining the target flight path along this line, the pilot is flying in or close to the target's plane of motion.

Lastly is the estimation of the lead angle. The reticle can be used for this purpose as well, as is explained in that RAF article. Sometimes additional reticles are included ( a circle within a circle), or other markings set at some distance from the pipper are also used. Regardless of how these look, they are used to estimate angles...the observed angle of the target from the pipper. This angle is the amount of lead needed for target motion. Of the three parameters, it is the most significant and the one most often miscalculated.

Here is a typical A2A sight. It has a center pipper for bullet impact point (corrected for convergence), a circular reticle segment used to estimate range and lead angle, and radii used to help track the target's plane of motion.



If you read the A2G articles, you are now familiar with the term "aim off distance".  The A2G sight has to allow the pilot to accurately point his flight path at that aim off distance. Then the pilot must accurately fly along the planned dive angle and airspeed while keeping his flight path on the aim off point. At some point in the dive, he will be at an altitude that is the release point. The gunsight designer has to add markings to tell the pilot when he is at that point. It is critical to note that this marking is only valid for one type of weapon, one release altitude, one dive angle, and one release airspeed.

To deliver the bomb, the pilot aims his sight at the aim off point. Sometimes the pipper is used for this...the assumption is that the pipper is on or close to the attacker's flight path. In the dive, the pilot holds the pipper on his aim off point and flys down the planned dive angle. The target will appear to move "up" the gunsight towards the center. At some point the target will be at a point below the pipper that represents the release point. The next figure shows one way to display this. Note the short "peg" at the bottom of the sight display. The pilot aims his pipper at the aim off point and then waits for the target to move up until it touches the top of the "peg". Then the weapon is released.



Whew!! Now...all of this doesn't do much good unless the sim developer tells us how these sights are designed and what the markings actually mean. I can't help you there...I'm as clueless as everyone else on that score.

Andy
« Last Edit: February 13, 2002, 08:55:04 AM by Andy Bush »

Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2002, 03:19:57 PM »
FLS ...

Great Link !!! Thanks alot ... Great material ... It is now part of my AH Manual. I guess you have to read it a few times and practice the exercises but I understand the concepts.

Kweassa ...

Great info ... all seems so logical, yet very hard to execute. With practice it must all fall into place. At least we can get shot down and respawn back at the base to have another go at. Real WWII guys weren't so lucky ... a much deeper appreciation of what type of pilots these guys were to fly into situations without all sorts of sophisticated avionics and targeting devices and come home alive.

elstevie ...

Thanks for the gunsight ... I guess my request for an explanation of the markings on the gunsights does not apply to this one (outside of the pipper - learned that from Andy) . I'll bet most of us wish they had the gunnery insights that you must have to effectively use this gunsight. Thanks for the first contribution.

Andy ...

Thanks for taking the time to provide some great insight. I was reading some of the stuff on SimHQ and now can recognize the POM lines. Tried them out last night and scored a couple of kills using it ... I had a better flight path to and following the target using the POM lines.

I guess with all new flyers, trying to calculate what I would call "The triangle of death" ... range, target plane of motion, and lead angle (taken from Andy's quote) ... AND trying to fly the plane ALL at the same time is a somewhat daunting task. I will probably die many a death (and boost everyone else's rankings) until I can master all these variables instinctively.

The one side of the triangle that I have the most difficulty with is LEAD ANGLE. Since focusing in on trying to improve this aspect, I have noticed that when I think I have the correct lead and squeeze off some rounds, the velocity at which the rounds leave the guns appears to acutally move the nose of the plane. If I didn't hit him good on the first burst, this throws off my lead so I have to readjust again and this is where I get into trouble. Just wish the first burst was really the only burst ... in time.

I would still like to believe that there are some gunsights out there that can help a pilot simplify the task at hand.

I noticed that akmimitz and Drex are creating "a massive training website". Maybe they would like to host a page on gunsight contributions and also copy the detailed information that has been supplied in this thread. Until then, I would still take any and all donations ... along with explanations ... of any homemade or aquired gunsights that the various AH flyers like to use.

Thanks again for any and all input on this topic.

Offline Andy Bush

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Using the gunsight in AH
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2002, 03:51:39 PM »
Slpshot

In case you missed it, this article has specific info on solving for lead for target motion in AH.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/gunsights/

Andy

Offline Raubvogel

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2002, 07:33:44 PM »
My gunsight looks like this     .                :)

Offline Fester'

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2002, 10:50:05 PM »
I'll probably not be well received in this because customizing gunsites is a lot of fun and people proudly display what they have created.

BUT

With the dynamics involved in air to air gunnery, a static site aid ceases to be of value in anything other than a dead six (low variable) shot.

Once deflection, and range, and relative speeds are added to the equation, the thought of lining a target up with a corresponding spot on a complex "Static' site by calculating the infinate number of variables becomes increasingly impractical.

The bad thing about many sites is that not only are they ineffective aids, but they clutter the visual cues that will allow you to make fine adjustments in aim to get on target. i.e Tracers.  

The situation is exacerbated when we focus on fine tuining or finding a "Better Site" who's whole foundation is fundamentally flawed, then to focus on simplicity and truely learning good gunnery skills free of the reliance on aids that dont help us.

It is overcomplication of something that benefits from simplicity.

Tracers and a bore site working in tandem.
The bore site tells you where your plane is pointing.
Tracers give you visual reference of where your bullets are going.

If you truely believe in your site, and it's ability to "Help" you with these complex computations... Turn your tracers off, and test yourself with deflection shots (anyone can hit dead 6)  Then make a simple bore site (there was one posted) and turn your tracers back on and go wreak havoc.

Offline FLS

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2002, 02:47:26 AM »
Slpshot

You might want to print out the angle off chart and the example that shows various aircraft in the correct position relative to the gunsight. They make a handy visual reference that will help you train your eye to see the angle off and estimate the proper lead.

As Andy says in the link he posted for one of his gunnery articles, the position of the tail relative to the wing or nose is a good guide to angle off. This is easy to see in the angle off chart.

Since we have range icons in AH most people don't appreciate the use of the ring for range estimation but you'll notice in the RAF manual that the ring makes it easier to place the pipper in the right spot.

Once you have set your convergence spend some time with the target utility. You'll notice that fuselage mounted guns shoot to about the same point at different ranges but wing mounted guns shoot to either side of your aimpoint when your target is closer or further away then your convergence range. If you are in-plane with your target this can let you hit both wings at once when you aren't at your convergence range but if your wings aren't lined up with your target you can shoot over one wing and under the other. Using a dot for a sight makes it harder to line up in-plane compared to a sight with horizontal bars.

Lead angle in a turn is tough because your target has to be  under your nose or you'll shoot behind it.  You'll get a feel for how far ahead to pull your nose for your shots to hit your target. The offline drones don't turn hard enough to practice this but you can get good practice in the training arena.

--)-FLS----
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Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2002, 09:41:09 AM »
Andy ...

Thanks for another great link. I read it with great interest last night before joining the game. IT HELPED !!!

After reading "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited - Guns, Gunsights, and Convergence" and "AIR TO AIR GUNNERY As Taught To Royal Air Force Pilots In WW2", I never looked at who authored these articles, and was wondering, who is this guy that provided all this great detail ...  WOOPS !!! Great stuff Andy. Nothing like getting info from the "real deal" (read your Bio). I have a couple of buddies that are just joining AH and will definitely point them to your articles.

Now that I have had a revelation ... I would like to play with that gunsight (Fig 29 - Reticle Ranging) that you created for the article. Any chance at getting my hands on it ?

Raubvogel ...

Don't know if you blew getting the attachment into your post or you were just being funny ?

Fester ...

Your observations are probably right on, but for new flyers (like me), I think we need to start off with visual aids in order to estimate POM and range. I have made a concerted effort to use the visual ranging on the sight, rather than try to read the range numbers on the Icon. I find that watching those numbers takes my eye off the real target and watching the wing positions of my target to anticipate or react to his next move. I think that eventually, as my skills at interpreting the visual cues of my target increases, I too will probably revert to a less cluttered gunsight ... then again, maybe not.

FLS ...

I did read the article, that Andy pointed out, last night before joining the game and let me tell you, it helped a great deal. My guesstimation of off-angle targets was better than ever and it resulted in quite a few wound and then move to kill scenarios, along with flat out kills with the first burst. This is something that I never really had much success at before.

As I stated above, I too like to use the ring and markings for ranging and only use the Icon ranging at the initial onset of a fight to set up my first move. I did notice last night in close high-off and medium-off angles, I actually had to point the guns off into the blue, all the while trying to anticipate the direction of the target because he was out-of-site. Wild ....

I haven't really taken a close look at the .TARGET aid, but will spend some quality time looking at it in the next few days.

--------------------------------

I don't know about anybody else, but as a new flyer, finally understanding these visuals and working with them has increased my initial hit and kill numbers significantly. Still not as good as I would like it to be, but increasing just the same.

I would like to point out, so that everybody doesn't think that I am only concentrating on the gunsight,  that the gunsight is not the do-all and end-all of A2A gunnery ... I know that flying the aircraft and getting yourself into a position of strength is primary ... the gunsight then comes into play after you have established the position. I am constantly working on this too.

Thanks again for everybody's interest and input on this subject. Hopefully other "newbies" will read this thread and benefit from it.

I still want to see some custom gunsights !!!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2002, 12:02:27 PM by SlpShot »

Offline Raubvogel

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2002, 10:07:20 AM »
I meant that my gunsight is a dot. Everything else just gets in the way. I think the most important part of gunnery is practice.

Offline Raubvogel

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2002, 10:08:39 AM »
Here's the one I use now:

Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2002, 12:00:42 PM »
Raubvogel ...

LOL ... Duh !!! Maybe I should read a little more closely next time. And yes, I agree practice makes perfect, and I am doing just that.

Thanks for the contribution ...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2002, 12:07:14 PM by SlpShot »